the forms of government we have, and are just about as sharp and intelligent as white men, and if they make an agreement such as we have in this case, and desire us to carry it out, I do not think that we should refuse to do it, on the ground that the ignorant Indians are our wards.

Mr. ALLISON. It is proposed that if there should be a deficiency the Secretary of the Interior shall be allowed to sell a portion of these securities upon the request of the representatives of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. Now I do not know who their representatives may be.

Mr. PETERS. Their Legislatures.

Mr. ALLISON. Then I should say their 66 Legislatures," or "the Chickasaw and Choctaw nations," so that the representation may be legal and authorized.

Mr. WINDOM. I have no objection to the amendment the gentleman suggests; although I think the bill is correct now.

Mr. ALLISON. I move to amend this bill by striking out the words "the representatives of;" so that that portion of the bill will

read:

Or in case the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations of Indians shall request it, then the Secretary of the Interior is authorized and directed to sell such bonds or other securities held in trust by the United States for the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations of Indians as may be necessary to discharge their respective obligations to the aforesaid loyal Choctaw and Chickasaw claimants, &c.

Mr. WINDOM. I have no objection to that amendment.

The amendment of Mr. ALLISON was then agreed to.

Mr. WINDOM. I will add one or two words more, and then yield to my colleague on the committee [Mr. SHANKS] for some remarks he desires to make on this subject. In making this compromise of settlement the amount found due to the Chickasaw Indians has been reduced somewhat from the amount reported by the commission. The committee felt that as the claimants were anxious that this bill should pass it was better to report upon the compromise as they had made it. I now yield for a few moments to the gentleman from Indiana, [Mr. SHANKS.]

The SPEAKER. How much time does the gentleman yield? ·

Mr. SHANKS. I hope the gentleman will not limit me as to time.

Mr. WINDOM. I have not much time left of the morning hour.

The SPEAKER. The gentleman can yield indefinitely, and resume the floor when he pleases.

Mr. WINDOM. I will yield to the gentleman for ten minutes.

Mr. SHANKS. Mr. Speaker, I wish to call the attention of the House for a few moments to the facts of this case. Under the provisions of the forty-ninth and fiftieth articles of the treaty of April 28, 1866, between the Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians and the United States, it was provided that there should be appointed by the President a commission whose duty it should be to investigate, by taking testimony, and determine the amount of damages done to the loyal Choctaws and loyal Chickasaws by the disloyal Choctaws and disloyal Chickasaws during the late rebellion.

When

I say "loyal Choctaws and loyal Chickasaws" I speak of the relation which individual members of these nations bore to this Government. The Choctaw and Chickasaw nations were both disloyal, and as such gave all the assistance in their power to the confederacy; but a portion of the people of both nations decided to stand by the Government. For this they were oppressed by those two nations; their property was seized and sold; and in the case of the Chickasaws especially, was put into the Treasury and the money arising from the sale of the property was used to carry on the rebellion. The commissioners appointed under the provisions of the treaty took testimony in both those nations after giving due notice, and they

have rendered their awards to the Secretary of the Interior. The amount found to be due by the Choctaw government to the loyal Choctaws was $109,742 08. That award was filed with the Secretary of the Interior; but for some reason not known to myself and not known to the world he has seen fit to decide that the award was too high, and that he would not confirm it.

The provision of the treaty is that the award shall only become final when it has been confirmed by the Secretary of the Interior. The further provision was that interest should be charged from the time the injuries had been done, which would amount to $34,020 14 from June 28, 1863, to June 28, 1868. The amount due to the loyal Choctaws would be, principal and interest, $143,762 22. But when the Secretary of the Interior decided not to confirm that award he carried his proposition further. He had no power to change the award, but he suggested-mark you, he suggested to these parties that they should make a compromise. A decision had been rendered and an award brought in after the taking of sworn testimony; but the Secretary suggested that there should be a subsequent agreement made between these parties, and there has been between the agents of these Indians, not the Indians themselves. There was, in the first instance, a solemn treaty between the Government and these Indians in relation to this money; and an award was made in accordance with that treaty; but now the Secretary of the Interior suggests that the agents of those parties shall, forsooth, make another agreement, which he proposes to confirm. Now, I take it that

these parties have no power to make that agreement. They have no power to depart from the provisions of that treaty and change the award which has been made. The Secretary of the Interior has no such power. But how is it proposed to change the award? In the case of the Choctaws it is proposed to strike off the interest, amounting to $34,020 14. In the case of the Chickasaws the amount found to be due by the award was $234,000, the interest upon that amount from August 1, 1862, being $83,070. It is proposed not only to strike off this interest, but also to deduct $84,000 of the principal.

Now, I want to call the further attention of the House to the facts of this case. These loyal men have been robbed. The Government has provided in its treaty that they shall be reimbursed by the people who have wronged them. Yet these agents propose now to reduce the award which has been made by making a deduction in the aggregate of $201,090 14. That is the form in which the matter now comes before the House; and the Secretary of the Interior finds it to be convenient to recommend the approval of this scheme, by which it is proposed to strike off nearly one half the amount found to be due to these loyal Indians.

A MEMBER. One half?

Mr. SHANKS. Yes, sir; nearly one half is stricken off.

I

I here speak for the loyal Indians. speak for the loyal Indians, who sacrificed their property in the war rather than be false to the Government. I wish to protect them against a combination-I believe that it is a combination against them-to take from them $84,000, besides the interest in each case, in all $201,090 14.

Mr. STEVENS, of New Hampshire. I desire to ask the gentleman if there was any evidence before the committee that the agents or attorneys of these loyal Indians were authorized to compromise this claim by reducing the amount of the award?

Mr. SHANKS. Not that I am aware of; there was none. I have filed a minority report, in which I have set forth the facts in reference to these claims. These commissioners were to report to the Secretary of the Interior their award. That was as far as they could go.

I am asked to state the reasons assigned by the Secretary of the Interior for not having

the award of the commission. The only reason assigned was that there were parties here from these Indian nations who opposed it.

They

Mr. WINDOM. Mr. Speaker, I should be glad, if it were possible, to carry out the views of the gentleman from Indiana. I think these loyal Indians will not thank him for acting as their friend here. They have been here for two years trying to get their claims adjusted, and they have been unable to do so. have had their attorney here for two years. They have been unable to get a bill through Congress, and they have been unable to get the award ratified. If the over-zealous friend. ship of the gentleman from Indiana succeeds in carrying the House with him they will have to wait and wander up and down here for years longer. I believe when this commission went to take proof in reference to these Choctaw and Chickasaw Indians they had no attorney to resist, and this deduction is perhaps not more than ought to be made.

Mr. SHANKS. The gentleman is in error. Mr. WINDOM. I am not.

Mr. SHANKS. The attorney for the loyal Indians, General Blunt, told me that they had an attorney, and the papers so show it, who cross-examined the witnesses. The testimony is on file in the office of the Secretary of the Interior, and shows the facts. The Choctaw nation had three attorneys and the Chickasaw nation one.

Mr. WINDOM. I am informed by the agent who acted for the loyal Indians that they did not have. The Choctaws did have an agent to resist this, but the Chickasaws did not. I hope the House will not follow the advice of the gentleman from Indiana, and leave these men to suffer for years longer simply on account of his over-zealous friendship for them. If the gentleman will offer an amendment, and the House will adopt it, requiring the Secretary of the Interior to pay the whole amount awarded, I will have no objection; only if that be done this will be the result: the treaty which authorized the commission to go out and make the award also provided that it shall only be paid upon the ratification of the Secretary of the Interior. If you declare for the whole amount he will not ratify the award. I prefer, therefore, they shall have this amount which they have agreed to accept than go without anything at all.

Mr. LAWRENCE, of Ohio. I wish to ask the gentleman a question. Have these loyal Indians, by agents or otherwise, agreed to the deductions which have been made?

Mr. WINDOM. They have.

Mr. LAWRENCE, of Ohio. By what authority?

Mr. WINDOM. By their attorney, who has been here for two years.

Mr. LAWRENCE, of Ohio. Did I understand the gentleman from Indiana to say that the agent receives fifty per cent. of the amount of deduction?

Mr. WINDOM. If the gentleman says so he knows more than I do. I do not know what percentage is received.

Mr. LAWRENCE, of Ohio. What agent receives fifty per cent. of this deduction?

Mr. SHANKS. The agent of the disloyal Indians. They give fifty per cent. on every dollar the agent gets.

Mr. LAWRENCE, of Ohio. There seems to be a question between the gentlemen, and I wish to know which is right. The gentleman from Minnesota says the loyal Indians by their attorney, have consented to this deduction. Mr. SHANKS. They have not.

Mr. WINDOM. There are several hundred, and they all may not have done so, but their agent agrees to this deduction.

Mr. SHANKS. I do not deny these Indians may have some agent outside, but I am

not in favor of it.

Mr. LAWRENCE, of Ohio. Will the gen tleman allow me another question?

Mr. WINDOM. I will yield to the gentleman from Indiana [Mr. SHANKS] to make a

I

motion that they be paid the whole amount. desire to make a further statement, however, on the subject.

Mr. SHANKS. I move to amend by increasing the amount payable by the Chickasaws to $234,000. That is the amount of the principal. I leave the interest off in both cases.

The SPEAKER. That amendment will be regarded as pending.

Mr. PETERS. I desire to say a word. Mr. WINDOM. I yield three minutes to the gentleman.

Mr. PETERS. I have taken an interest in this matter because I have long known the agent of the loyal Choctaws and Chickasaws. I refer to General Blunt, of Maine, a man who helped to fight our battles in Arkansas and in the southwest. All these loyal Indians were in his army; they were, as it were, children of his. They fled from persecution; they were driven from their homes, their houses were burned over their heads, and their property confiscated. When the new treaty was to be made he came here and befriended them. He knows them personally, their wants, and their condition. They have unlimited confidence in his integrity, as have I and every other man who knows him. He was anxious that there should be a clause in that treaty by which these men should be protected. He has a power of attorney from these men to look to their interest. He has been here two years acting in their behalf. He has been unable to have his action confirmed by the Department. They have made motions for a new trial and for reopenings, have brought witnesses and taken testimony, and there seems to be no end to the delay. Now, he understanding it all, and having the interest of these loyal Choctaws and Chickasaws intrusted to him, and having full power to act on their behalf, has made this compromise. Ay, sir, he has made it upon the belief that there must be a reduction in a part of the claim. Upon looking over all the legal evidence he has come to the conclusion that there would be a reduction, and that it was to the interest of these people to take what they can get and as quick as they can get it, and have an end to the matter. They have been waiting here two years, and may wait twenty before they can get it all. I appreciate the motive of the gentleman from Indiana, [Mr. SHANKS.] He not only favors the bill, but he wants to go further in the same direction. But, sir, his efforts will not subserve their interest, and I feel sure it will be an injury.

[Here the hammer fell.]

Mr. WINDOM. I yield five minutes to the gentleman from Kansas.

Mr. CLARKE, of Kansas. I cannot in the time allowed me by the chairman of the committee discuss this question as I would like to. Many circumstances connected with the exodus of the loyal Indians from the Indian territory into Kansas are known to me personally. Sir, one of the most affecting sights my eyes ever beheld was that of one thousand one hundred women and children of those loyal Indians who fled into Kansas during the progress of the rebellion in a state of destitution and suffering such as I trust I shall never witness again. If I had time I could read from documents, contained in the report of the Commissioner of Indian Affairs of 1862, facts related by responsible parties, which would not only excite sympathy, but which would compel, it seems to me, every member of this House to do this simple act of justice to the loyal Choctaws and Chickasaws included in the provisions of this bill. I have here letters from the Commissioner of Indian Affairs at that time; also, a letter from Surgeon A. B. Campbell, addressed to the Surgeon General of the United States, an extract from which I will read. Speaking of the condition of these loyal Indians he says:

"They are extremely destitute of cooking utensils, and axes or hatchets; many can with difficulty get wood to make fires, either to warm themselves or to cook with, which, together with the want of cooking

utensils, compels many of them to eat their provisions raw. They greatly need medical assistance; many have their toes frozen off, others have feet wounded by sharp ice or branches of trees lying on the snow; but few have shoes or moccasins. They suffer with inflammatory diseases of the chest, throat, and eyes. Those who come in last get sick as soon as they eat. Means should be taken at once to have the horses which lie dead in every direction, through the camp and on the side of the river, removed and burned, lest the first few warm days breed a pestilence among them. Why the officers of the Indian department are not doing something for them I cannot understand; common humanity demands that more should be done, and done at once, to save them from total destruction."

There is also a letter here written by Hon. George W. Collamore, formerly of Boston, and who, I doubt not, was well known to some of the honorable members from Massachusetts. At the time of the celebrated Lawrence massacre he was mayor of that city, and was mur dered by Quantrell's band. I ask attention to the following extract from his letter, giving a minute description of the condition of these Indians from his own personal observation:

"In company with Dr. Coffin I visited nearly fifty patients in one afternoon. Not a few he pronounced incurable, their diseases being consumption and pneumonia, brought on from exposure and privations of the common necessaries of life. Dr. George A Culter, agent of the Creeks, informed me that in two months two hundred and forty refugees of that nation had died. Those of other tribes suffered in like degree. Dr. Coffin informed me that upwards of one hundred amputations of frosted limbs had taken place. Among them I saw a little Creek boy, about eight years old, with both feet taken off near the ankles; others lying upon the ground whose frosted limbs rendered them unable to move about. Five persons in a similar situation the physician pronounced past recovery. Sickness among them on account of their exposure and lack of proper food was on the increase. The following day I visited almost every lodge of several of the largest tribes, and found the same destitution and suffering among them. A cold drenching rain fell on the last day of the visit, and for eight hours I went from lodge to lodge and tribe to tribe, and the suffering of the well, to say nothing of the sick, is beyond description. Their numbers, as ascertained, are as follows: Creeks, 5,000; Seminoles, 1.096; Chickasaws, 140; Quapaws, 315; Uchees, 544; Keesbies, 83; Delawares, 197; Ironeyes, 17; Caddoes, 3; Witchitas, 5; Cherokees, 240-making an aggregate of 7,600 persons."

I have no hesitation in saying that if the true history of the retreat of these Indians into Kansas in the midst of winter could be written it would present one of the most graphic pictures of the great rebellion that could be shown during the whole of that strife.

In addition I will say this only: this case is a very simple one. These loyal Indians were driven out of the Indian territory, and their property taken and destroyed or confiscated. And what this bill asks is that they shall be remunerated for this property so taken and destroyed or confiscated by the governments of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations. The representatives of the Choctaw and Chickasaw nations, under the instructions of their Legislature, have been here in Washington for more than two years resisting the claims of these loyal Indians. But at last this compromise

has been effected.

[Here the hammer fell.]

Mr. WINDOM. I now call the previous question on the bill and pending amendment. The previous question was seconded and the main question ordered. Mr. WINDOM.

now adjourn.

I move that the House

The motion was agreed to; and accordingly (at four o'clock and forty minutes p. m.) the House adjourned.

PETITIONS, ETC.

The following petitions, &c., were presented under the rule, and referred to the appropriate committees:

Short, of Harrodsburg, Mercer county, KenBy Mr. BECK: The petition of Coleman tucky, for a pension as a soldier in the war of 1812.

By Mr. ELA: The petition of Lemuel Worster, of Lebanon, Maine, for a pension, from 1858, when an act of Congress passed both Houses for his relief, but failed to reach the President.

By Mr. PAINE: A memorial of millers of Milwaukee, against taxation of breadstuffs.

By Mr. SCHENCK: A remonstrance of the manufacturers of flour of Montgomery county, Ohio, against tax of two dollars on manufacture of flour in addition to a tax of ten per cent. on sales.

IN SENATE.
THURSDAY, July 9, 1868.

Prayer by Rev. E. H. GRAY, D. D.

On motion of Mr. HARLAN, and by unaniimous consent, the reading of the Journal of yesterday was dispensed with.

EXECUTIVE COMMUNICATION.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore laid before the Senate a report of the Secretary of the Interior, communicating, in compliance with a resolution of the Senate of the 8th instant, information in relation to the public buildings at Santa Fé, New Mexico; which was ordered to lie on the table, and be printed.

PETITIONS AND MEMORIALS.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore presented papers in relation to the claim of Miss Sue Murphy, for compensation for damages done her farm by reason of the same being occupied for military purposes; which was referred to the Committee on Claims.

Mr. HARLAN presented resolutions of the Legislature of Iowa, in favor of the passage of an act declaring the Iowa river not navigable from the city of Wapello, in Louisa county, north; which was referred to the Committee on Commerce.

Mr. MORTON presented a petition of citizens of Indiana, praying for an appropriation for the improvement of the St. Mary's river and the St. Mary's ship-canal; which was referred to the Committee on Commerce.

Mr. NYE presented a report of the directors of the Washington and Georgetown Railroad Company for the year 1867; which was referred to the Committee on the District of Columbia.

REPORTS OF COMMITTEES.

Mr. HARLAN, from the Committee on Post Offices and Post Roads, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 631) amendatory of an act approved July 20, 1866, entitled "An act to authorize the construction of certain bridges, and to establish them as post roads," reported it without amendment.

Mr. WILLEY, from the Committee on Claims, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 231) for the relief of Dr. John Templeton, reported adversely thereon.

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 257) for the relief of Clement T. Rice and Chauncey N. Noteware, late registers and receivers at Carson City, Nevada, reported adversely thereon.

Mr. HOWARD, from the Committee on Claims, to whom was referred the petition of Valentine H. Voorhees, submitted an adverse report thereon; which was ordered to be printed.

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the joint resolution (S. R. No. 72) for the relief of John M. Broome and others, the band of the twelfth Kentucky infantry, reported it without amendment.

Mr. MORRILL, of Vermont, from the Committee on Claims, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 1099) for the relief of Wait Talcott, reported it without amendment.

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine, from the Committee on Commerce, to whom was referred the bill (S. No. 565) to authorize the Secretary of State to adjust the claim of Gustavus G. Cushman for office rent, while commissioner under the reciprocity treaty, reported it without amendment.

He also, from the same committee, to whom was referred the bill (H. R. No. 1275) relating to the Alexandría canal, reported it with amend

ments.

Mr. DRAKE, from the Committee on Naval Affairs, to whom was referred the bill (H. R.

No. 941) to amend certain acts in relation to the Navy and Marine corps, reported it with amendments.

Mr. VAN WINKLE, from the Committee on Pensions, to whom were referred the following bills, reported them severally without amendment:

A bill (H. R. No. 1179) granting a pension to Mary A. Falardo, widow of Onesimus Falardo, deceased, late a private in company K, of the twelfth regiment of New York vol unteers;

A bill (H. R. No. 1180) granting a pension to Phoebe McBride, mother of Thomas McBride, deceased, late a private in company B, of the eighty-seventh regiment of Illinois volunteers;

A bill (H. R. No. 1181) granting a pension to Harriet E. Shears, widow of John T. Shears, deceased, late a private in company H, of the fifty-seventh regiment of Illinois volunteer infantry;

A bill (H. R. No. 1182) granting a pension to William H. Blair, late a private in company G, of the twelfth regiment of Maine

volunteers;

A bill (H. R. No. 1183) granting a pension to Christopher M. Cornmesser, late a private in the independent Iowa home guards;

A bill (H. R. No. 945) to place the name of Ellen Curry, widow of James Curry, deceased, a private soldier in company F, thirty-ninth regiment Illinois volunteers, upon the pensionroll of the United States;

A bill (H. R. No. 1220) granting a pension to Kate Higgins; and

A bill (H. R. No. 1221) granting a pension to Sarah J. Rogers.

Mr. TIPTON, from the Committee on Public Lands, to whom was referred the bill (S, No. 579) to establish a new land district in the State of Nebraska, reported it with an amend

Mr. HARLAN asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 605) to declare a part of the Iowa river not a navigable stream; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Commerce.

Mr. FOWLER asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 606) granting a pension to Robert Watson; which was read twice by its title, and referred to the Committee on Pensions.

Mr. NYE asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a bill (S. No. 607) to amend an act incorporating the Washington and Georgetown Railroad Company; which was read twice by its title, referred to the Committee on the District of Columbia, and ordered to be printed.

Mr. ROSS asked, and by unanimous consent obtained, leave to introduce a joint resolution (S. R. No. 156) authorizing the appointment of commissioners to examine the claims of citizens of Douglas, Johnson, and Miami counties, Kansas, for spoliations committed in what is known as the Quantrell raid in August, 1863; which was read twice by its title, referred to the Committee on Military Affairs and the Militia, and ordered to be printed.

FOURTEENTH CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

Mr. EDMUNDS submitted the following resolution; which was considered by unanimous consent, and agreed to:

Resolved, That the Secretary of State be, and he is hereby, requested to communicate to the Senate, without delay, a list of the States of the Union whose 40TH CONG. 2D SESS.-No. 242.

Legislatures have ratified the fourteenth article of amendment to the Constitution of the United States, with copies of all the resolutions of ratification in his office.

And resolved further, That he communicate to the Senate copies of all resolutions of ratification of said amendment which he may hereafter receive as soon as he shall receive the same, respectively.

MIDWAY ISLANDS.

Mr. DRAKE submitted the following resolution; which was considered by unanimous consent, and agreed to:

Resolved, That the Secretary of the Navy be directed to communicate to the Senate all information in the Navy Department in relation to the discovery, occupation, and character of the Midway Islands in the Pacific ocean.

MESSAGE FROM THE HOUSE.

A message from the House of Representatives announced that the House had passed the following bills and joint resolution; in which it requested the concurrence of the Senate:

A bill (H. R. No. 1353) for the removal of certain disabilities from the persons therein named:

A bill (H. R. No. 1375) to transfer to the

Department of the Interior certain powers and duties now exercised by the Secretary of the Treasury in connection with Indian affairs; and

A joint resolution (H, R: No. 327) authorizing the Secretary of the Treasury to remit the duty on certain meridian circles.

IMPROVEMENT OF MISSISSIPPI RIVER.

Mr. POMEROY. I ask leave to withdraw a motion that I made the other morning to reconsider the vote on the passage of the bill (H. R. No. 554) making a grant of land to the State of Minnesota to aid in the improvement of the navigation of the Mississippi river. I thought, at the suggestion of several Senators, that there was a mistake about it, and I made a motion to reconsider that I might look into it. I am satisfied by the map which I hold in my hand, made by General Warren, and from a further investigation, that the bill was right and ought to have passed.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The motion to reconsider will be withdrawn if there be no objection. No objection being made, it is withdrawn.

HOUSE BILLS REFERRED.

The following bills and joint resolution, received from the House of Representatives, were severally read twice by their titles, and referred as indicated below:

A bill (H. R. No. 1353) for the removal of certain disabilities from the persons therein named-to the Committee on the Judiciary.

A bill (H. R. No. 1375) to transfer to the Department of the Interior certain powers and duties now exercised by the Secretary of the Treasury in connection with Indian affairs-to the Committee on Indian Affairs.

A joint resolution (H. R. No. 327) authorizing the Secretary of the Treasury to remit the duty on certain meridian circles-to the Committee on Finance.

PENSION BILLS.

Mr. VAN WINKLE. I ask permission to make a report from a conference committee. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The report will be received.

Mr. VAN WINKLE. The committee of conference on the disagreeing votes of the two Houses on certain pensions, submit twentytwo reports. I will state that the committee was full on both sides, and there was a perfect agreement between them. There is nothing to be submitted to the Senate but the mere question of adopting the reports, and perhaps it may be done by one vote to save time.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Senator from West Virginia moves that the Senate concur in these reports. They are pension bills on which there is no disagreement, and they may be taken separately or collectively. How shall it be done? ["All together."]

The question is on concurring in the reports of the committee of conference on these various pension bills.

The motion was agreed to.

The following are the bills covered by the reports of the committee of conference:

A bill (H. R. No. 373) to place the name of Mahala A. Straight upon the pension-roll of the United States;

A bill (H. R. No. 456) granting a pension to the minor children of Pleasant Stoops;

A bill (H. R. No. 518) granting a pension to George F. Gorham, late a private in company B, twenty-ninth regiment Massachusetts volunteer infantry;

A bill (H. R. No. 521) to place the name of Solomon Zachman on the pension-roll; A bill (H. R. No. 522) granting a pension to W. W. Cunningham;

A bill (H. R. No. 525) granting a pension to Jeremiah T. Hallett;

A bill (H. R. No. 661) granting a pension to the widow and minor children of William Craft;

A bill (H. R. No. 662) granting a pension to the widow and minor children of George R. Waters;

A bill (H. R. No. 663) granting a pension to Cyrus K. Wood, the legal representative of Cyrus D. Wood;

A bill (H. R. No. 664) granting a pension to the minor children of Charles Gouler; A bill (H. R. No. 666) granting a pension to Henry H. Hunter;

A bill (H. R. No. 669) granting a pension to the widow and minor children of Myron Wilklow;

A bill (H. R. No. 670) granting a pension to the widow and children of Andrew Holman; A bill (H. R. No. 672) granting a pension to the widow and minor children of Charles W. Wilcox;

A bill (H. R. No. 673) granting a pension to the widow and minor children of John S. Phelps;

A bill (H. R. No. 675) granting a pension to the widow and minor children of Cornelius L. Rice;

A bill (H. R. No. 676) granting a pension to Thomas Connolly;

A bill (H. R. No. 677) granting a pension to the minor children of James Heatherly; A bill (H. R. No. 770) granting a pension to John H. Finlay ;

A bill (H. R. No. 771) granting a pension to John H. Lay;

A bill (H. R. No. 773) granting a pension to William H. McDonald; and

A bill (H. R. No. 825) granting a pension to John W. Hughes.

TEMPORARY LOAN CERTIFICATES.

Mr. CATTELL. I move that the Senate proceed to the consideration of Senate bill No. 543.

The motion was agreed to; and the bill (S. No. 543) to provide for a further issue of temporary loan certificates for the purpose of redeeming and retiring the remainder of the outstanding compound-interest notes was considered by the Senate as in Committee of the Whole. For the purpose of redeeming and retiring the remainder of the compound-interest notes outstanding, the bill directs the Secretary of the Treasury to issue an additional amount of temporary loan certificates, not exceeding $25,000,000; such certificates to bear interest at the rate of three per cent. per annum, principal and interest payable in lawful money on demand, and to be similar in all respects to the certificates authorized by the act entitled "An act to provide ways and means for the payment of compound-interest notes," approved March 2, 1867; and the certificates may constitute and be held by any national bank holding or owning the same as a part of the reserve, in accordance with the provisions of the act of March 2, 1867. The bill was reported to the Senate without amendment.

Mr. TRUMBULL. I ask for the reading of that bill. It is a very important bill to be considered in the morning hour.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will not be heard. I do not suppose a member of the Senate has heard it read.

Mr. EDMUNDS. I heard it.

Mr. TRUMBULL. I want to hear it read. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Unless order can be preserved, there is no use of reading bills or anything else.

The Chief Clerk read the bill.

Mr. CONKLING. In addition to hearing the bill read, I should like to hear from the Senator who has it in charge some statement or information in regard to it.

amount to $50,000,000, as I have no doubt that amount would be readily taken, and that it would prove the cheapest loan ever made by the Government.

Very respectfully, yours,

H. R. HULBURD,

Comptroller.

Hon. A. G. CATTELL, United States Senate.

I will only add that this measure received the hearty assent of every member of the Finance Committee; and the distinguished Senator from Maine, [Mr. FESSENDEN,] who was at the head of the Finance Committee at the last session,

of $50,000,000 then, as I understand he does the issue of the present $25,000,000.

At the last session of Congress there were some eighty millions of these notes outstanding, and upon the recommendation of the Secretary of the Treasury the Finance Committee unanimously recommended the passage of a law issuing these temporary certificates to the amount of $50,000,000, which would cover the sum falling due up to the meeting of the present Congress. The Secretary of the Treasury at that time recommended the issue of these certificates to the extent of $100,000,000, for the purpose of redeeming the whole of these notes. There are now $30,000,000 outstanding, and the Finance Committee, in considering the subject, have unanimously arrived at the conclusion that the simplest, cheapest, and easiest form of meeting this indebtedness is in the way of these temporary loan certificates at three per cent. I hold in my hand a letter from the Secretary of the Treasury, to whom this bill was sent, and whose opinion was asked upon it by the Finance Committee. He says:

TREASURY DEPARTMENT, June 18, 1868. DEAR SIR: I have merely time to acknowledge the receipt of your favor of the 17th instant, and to say that Senate bill 543, to provide for a further issue of temporary loan certificates, &c., has my hearty approval. H. McCULLOCH, Secretary.

Very truly yours,

Hon. A. G. CATTELL, United States Senate. It is the cheapest form of loan, Mr. President, that the Government now has, and it is a loan which in my judgment, being held as a portion of the reserves of the banks, may be continued during the whole time of the existence of those bank charters, if the Government shall so desire-a loan at three per cent. in currency; the cheapest and most desirable loan, in my judgment, which the Government can possibly have. I have also inquired of the Comptroller of the Currency in regard to this loan in its relations to the banking institutions, and I hold in my hand a letter from him on the subject, which I beg permission to read to the Senate.

Mr. Hulburd replies to a note I addressed him, as follows:

TREASURY DEPARTMENT, OFFICE OF COMPTROLLER OF THE CURRENCY, WASHINGTON, June 26, 1868. DEAR SIR: I am just in receipt of a copy of the bill introduced by you June, 13, to provide for a further issue of temporary loan certificates," &c. I am glad to see this action on your part, and hope you will succeed in getting it through the Senate. When the act of March 7, 1867, was introduced, which provided for the issue of $100,000,000 of three per cent. certificates, it was cut down by a committee of conference of the two Houses to one half the original amount. I was then, and am still, of the opinion that the national banks of the country could carry with ease $100,000,000 of these certificates, and would be glad to do it probably for the whole duration of their corporate existence. I should regard the loan as quite as permanent as if it were made redeemable in twenty years, and as advantageous and affording a most valuable reserve to the banking interests of the country.

I notice that your bill contemplates the issue of $25,000,000. I hope the Senate will increase the

Mr. TRUMBULL. I was not aware that so important a bill as this was to be called up this morning, and am not prepared with facts and figures this morning to present my objections to it. I hope, therefore, that it will go over. will state in a word, what my objections is, and I wish to refer to the documents to show exactly the basis upon which my opposition to such a bill as this rests.

I

We have had in the Treasury of the United States for some two years-and it is to get the precise facts that I prefer the bill should go over some seventy-five or one hundred millions in gold lying idle. I made an effort in this body a year ago, perhaps more, to have some scheme adopted by which this gold lying idle while the Government of the United States is paying interest upon its indebtedness should be taken from the Treasury. At that time I was met by the Senator from Ohio [Mr. SHERMAN] with the statement that all the gold we had would soon be needed to pay interest and maturing obligations of the United States; that there would be no surplus. A reference to his remarks at that time will show that his opposition to any scheme to deplete the Treasury of this amount of gold was based upon a statement that all the receipts from duties in gold would be required to meet the obligations of the United States which had to be paid in gold. Now, a year has transpired. We find that in the statement made at the time the Senator from Ohio was mistaken.

Now, I wish to ask the Senate, and I wish it to go to the country, to know why it is that the Government of the United States has lying idle in its Treasury, year after year, seventyfive to one hundred million dollars in gold, worth in paper from one hundred and twentyfive to one hundred and fifty millions, and at the same time we are paying interest at six per cent. in gold upon bonds that this gold would take up at any time. I am sure that such management cannot be justified.

Mr. CONKLING. Without some explanation.

Mr. TRUMBULL. Without some explanation, certainly, and I do not know what explauation there can be. I cannot conceive bow it can be possible that a business man who owed large debts amounting to hundreds of thousands of dollars should retain in his vaults, useless, a twentieth part of all he owed. If a man owed $20,000, and kept lying in his vaults year after year $1,000 in money, paying interest upon what he owed, we would think that he was a very bad manager. Now, here is a proposition, when our bonds are falling due

Mr. CATTELL. Will the Senator allow me to say a word right here?

Mr. TRUMBULL. Certainly. Mr. CATTELL. Would it not be better to let this bill pass now, and make a loan of three per cent., and then use the money in the Treasury, if the Senator from Illinois can bring the Senate to a realization of his views on the subject for the retirement of the six per cents.? Would there not be good policy in that, I inquire?

able in specie. I think it is miserable policy to be borrowing money. But, Mr. President, there is another serious objection. We have been discussing here in this body for the last two or three days whisky frauds. We have been talking about the demoralization that exists throughout the land in the revenue department. What so well calculated to produce demoralization in all the departments of this Government as to allow $100,000,000 of money to lie idle year after year in the vaults of your Treasury, subject to be used by the officers having charge of it? I do not say that it is used; I do not intimate that it has been used; but I say that it is there where it might be used by dishonest men; and I say, as I said a year ago, it is dangerous to the liberties of any people to hoard up millions and tens of millions of money in the hands of any individuals. Certainly the Committee on Finance can find some way to dispose of this gold in the Treasury; and when our debts fall due can make use of it to pay them rather than borrow again for the purpose of paying them. But, in order to present my views upon this subject, I wish to have the precise figures, and I wish to read to the Senate the remarks of the Senator from Ohio.

Mr. SHERMAN. I can give the Senator the precise amount of gold.

Mr. TRUMBULL. I want to read for the benefit of the Senate and the country the reasons which were given why no action could be taken a year ago to deplete the Treasury of this gold. If those reasons were unsound, I trust that they will not be adhered to by the Senator from Ohio. I hope this important measure may go over until to-morrow with a view of affording an opportunity of inquiring into the subject; and I make that motion that the pending proposition be postponed until to-morrow with a view of taking up the meas ure which the Senator from lowa [Mr. HARLAN] has particularly in charge in regard to the bridge at Rock Island.

Mr. SHERMAN. I have but a few words to say in reply to the Senator from Illinois. If the Senator really desires time to look into this measure presented by the Senator from New Jersey, I certainly will give him the opportunity, if the Senator from New Jersey con

sents.

This three per cent, certificate bill has been pending for a month or two, and it seems to me a very simple measure. It substitutes a three per cent. certificate payable principal and interest in lawful money, for a compound-interest note that must be paid. There are but two modes of paying the compound-interest notes. There is no surplus revenue to pay them, and the only mode now provided by law will be by the sale of bonds; and the Committee on Finance, as a matter of course, are unanimously of the opinion that it is better for the Government to use these three per cent. demand certificates rather than to issue bonds.

The question now raised by the Senator from Illinois for about the tenth time is, whether or not the Government of the United States ought to sell the gold on hand. That is an independent question. We can use that gold either in the purchase of bonds or in the payment of debts; but it has been the general opinion among the wisest men of this country that it was important to maintain in the Treasury this large reserve in gold, now about seventy millions, varying from seventy to one hundred millions. That is a question in no way connected with these three per cent. certificates. If Congress directs the sale of this gold, or the application of this gold to the payment of the national debt, it can be very easily disposed of; but such is not the opinion of the Committee on Finance. They think it would be better to keep the gold in the Treasury, where it is per

as the great safety-valve, I may say, the power the United States hold over gold gamblers. But for that large mass of gold in the Treasury the fluctuations of gold would be very great indeed. I have no doubt that that amount of gold in the Treasury, by maintaining at a pretty

nearly equal balance the present price of gold, has prevented fluctuations that would be very injurious to the people of the United States.

But certainly it is not worth while to discuss that question on this bill. The Senator from Illinois, who seems to be troubled about this gold, drags it in in regard to every proposition. If he will introduce a proposition directing the Secretary of the Treasury to sell this gold, and will have it referred in the ordinary way, I promise him that a report shall be made promptly upon the subject, and then the Senate may do what they please in regard to the disposition of this gold. But whenever a collateral measure is brought up he seeks to bring forward this discussion about the gold. If the Senator will introduce a joint resolution directing the sale of this gold and refer it to the Finance Committee, I promise him that at the very next session a report shall be made, and the opinion of the Senate may be taken as soon as possible on the question of the policy of selling the gold. That has nothing to do with the temporary provision for the payment of compound-interest notes, unless the Senator desires to present the question that the gold shall be sold to redeem the compound-interest notes. If so, he can do it in the form of an amendment, and then the sense of the Senate can be taken on the question of the sale of gold on hand.

I have nothing to say in regard to the postponement. I leave that entirely to the Senator from New Jersey. This bill has been pending a month or two, and it is very important that it should be acted on at an early day. I do not want to interfere with the management of the bill.

Mr. COLE. Mr. President, I have some objections to this measure. I believe it to be another plan for drawing more interest from the Treasury. The idea of asking for this addition to the three per cent. certificates is in order that they may be used by the national banks as a part of their reserve, instead of non-interest-bearing United States notes or greenbacks. That I believe to be the object aimed at. It is therefore a plan for the benefit and the profit of the national banks. They seem to be unwilling to have any form of securities or money that is not producing some revenue in the form of interest to be drawn out of the United States Treasury. Their bonds that are left on deposit draw interest in greenbacks at the rate of about seven and forty hundredths per cent. Their loans draw interest. A part of their reserve fund draws interest. But as there are not enough three per cent. certificates to supply all of the reserve fund at present, this proposition goes to the extent of asking for the privilege of issuing more three per cent. certificates, in order that all this reserve fund may draw some interest as well. I am, therefore, opposed to the measure. these compound-interest notes have ceased to bear interest, let them remain in that condition until we can make some disposition of them. I do not think it absolutely necessary that we should supply their places by issuing these three per cent. certificates.

If

Mr. CATTELL. Ordinarily I would not object to a postponement of this bill at the request of a Senator; but really I cannot see that there is any relevancy in the point made by the Senator from Illinois in regard to this bill. The chairman of the Finance Committee has sufficiently explained that that is an entirely different question. I ask again whether it would not be infinitely better for the Government of the United States, if they are disposed to sell this gold, to redeem the obligations upon which they are paying six per cent. interest, and then obtain this $25,000,000 at three per cent. currency? I think that is the simplest proposition that can be submitted to anybody, that they will take $25,000,000 at three per cent., and then, if the views entertained by the Senator from Illinois should prevail, and the Congress of the United States should determine that there is too much gold

in the Treasury, and should direct it to be sold in any form, the outstanding obligations of the United States, upon which we are paying six per cent. in gold, could be redeemed therefrom. I hope the Senator from Illinois will withdraw his objection and allow this bill to be disposed of. It is near the close of the session, and it must go to the House of Representatives. It has been upon our tables for nearly a month, and I trust the Senate will finish it this morning.

Mr. FESSENDEN. Mr. President, I will not undertake to combat the ideas of my friend from Illinois with regard to the gold in the Treasury. I leave that entirely to the Finance Committee. But I really hope that this bill will be acted upon now and passed, simply because I wish to save the credit of the Government, without exposing the Government to any extra and unnecessary effort to get funds for a purpose which must be accomplished.

The Senator from California says, if these notes have become payable, or are about to become payable, and the interest on them has ceased, all we have got to do is to let them lie until we can conveniently pay them. That applies to the public debt. That is repudiation; that is bankruptcy-nothing more nor less. These obligations become due at a certain date. We have promised to pay them at that date with interest accumulated upon them. But says the Senator from California, "It is not convenient to pay them; let them lie;" thus having $30,000,000 more of this paper out, not taken up by the Government.

Now, I want to say to my honorable friend that doctrine will not do. We must pay them in some way or other, and we must pay them when they become payable, because they were not issued as currency at all. We do not propose to pay them by issuing more six per cent. gold-bearing bonds, or bonds with gold interTherefore 1 cannot consent with him, if these $30,000,000 become payable, to let them lie, and simply say, "It is not convenient to pay them." That will not do for the Govern

est.

ment of the country.

Mr. COLE. I need hardly remind the honorable Senator from Maine that we owe a great deal of indebtedness that we are utterly unable to pay. We are able to pay only a very small proportion of what we owe, at best.

Mr. FESSENDEN. We pay every dollar that is payable-everything except the notes which are issued as currency. Everything else we meet. But the Senator's proposition is to let our obligations to a large amount lie and take no notice of them, pay neither principal nor interest. That is what my friend says. I say to him again that that will not do. No Government on the face of the earth can deal upon those principles with its creditors. We must pay them in some way or other. Now, the question is, how? The Secretary of the Treasury says he will not have funds to meet the ordinary expenses of the Government and at the same time to pay $30,000,000 out of the Treasury for the redemption of this paper. What, then, will you do? Will you borrow more money by the issuing of more six per cent. bonds? We shall have to do that if we cannot do any better. But what is this prop osition? This proposition is simply to issue a quantity of paper, $25,000,000, bearing three per cent. currency interest, which is sight paper, which may be taken up at any time. How much have you heard in this Hall about the necessity of reducing our interest? Is there any Senator in this Hall who does not recognize that necessity? If he does, here is an opportunity. I wish we could put the whole of our debt in the same condition and let it run at three per cent.

If the banks are willing to take $25,000,000 more and hold it as part of their reserve, why not allow them to do so? The Senator says it will liberate so much of these United States notes. What if it does? It does not take them out of circulation because they cannot be taken out of circulation by law. He must

keep $360,000,000, as the law stands, in circulation. They cannot be retired.

Mr. CATTELL. They are virtually out of circulation when they are held as a reserve in the banks.

Mr. FESSENDEN. I suppose they are. They are now used as a reserve; but suppose the banks put them out and substitute these $25,000,000 for them, what then? They come into circulation, do they not? Then they come to the Treasury, and the Treasury must do what with them? It cannot retire them; the law prohibits it. It must put them out again. May they not as well be in the circulation of the country as in the vaults of the banks? I do not appreciate the force of that argument.

Then this is nothing but a simple proposition, and a very plain one, to pay off a six per cent. note which we must pay with a three per cent. note payable in currency. If that does not recommend itself to the common sense of everybody it is very strange to me. I was very glad when this bill was brought in increasing the amount of three per cent. certificates, and I hope the Senate will pass it..

Mr. TRUMBULL. I am a little surprised that a bill of this kind should be called up and its passage insisted upon in the morning hour, when a Senator asks to have it go over until to-morrow. The Committee on Finance are unanimous, it is said. They have been pursuing this policy for some years; and I am reminded by the Senator from Ohio that for the tenth time I have objected to retaining this amount of gold in the Treasury. I wish to show that the reasons that he gave for retaining the gold in the Treasury have proved by the lapse of time not to be well founded. I think, instead of its being such a plain proposition that we should issue notes bearing three per cent. interest, and take up those that are bearing six or more, that it is an equally plain proposition that when we have got the money we should pay off our indebtedness as it falls due, and not pay either three per cent. interest or any other rate of percentage, and that it would be a much wiser policy to sell some of this gold and pay these compound-interest notes than to issue another species of indebtedness in lieu of them. If the Finance Committee get up a loan bill by which they can reduce the rate of interest from six to three per cent. on such portions of the indebtedness as we cannot pay off, that will be very well; but it would be miserable economy, let me say to the Senator from Maine, to borrow money at three per cent. interest when we had no occasion to borrow it at all. When you have money in your vaults you do not want to pay any interest.

I trust that this bill will not be forced to a vote this morning, the first moment of its consideration, but that it will be suffered to go over. However, I will not place myself in the way of the action of the Senate by attempting to delay it unreasonably by taking up time. If the Senator from New Jersey considers it his duty to press such a bill as this to a vote in the morning hour when it is asked that it may go over until to-morrow morning, and the Senate sustain him in it, of course I have nothing to do but to submit to the decision of the Senate. I trust, however, the vote will not be taken upon it to-day.

The PRESIDENT pro tempore put the question on the motion to postpone the bill until to-morrow, and declared that the ayes appeared to have it.

Mr. CATTELL. I ask for a division on that question. There were but two or three responses.

Mr. TRUMBULL. Let us have the yeas and nays, then, and see if the Senate will refuse to give a Senator an opportunity to look into the bill.

Several SENATORS. Oh, no; another division will do.

The question being again put, there wereayes twenty-two, noes not counted. So the motion to postpone was agreed to.