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Mr. TRUMBULL. I will modify it in that It is the same way in the recess of the Sen- so that the proposition, in the form in which it form by withdrawing the last clause.

ate. Suppose the President thinks proper to is pending, involves no constitutional question Mr. HENDERSON. The Senator will reach

remove the postmaster at Cincinnati. "How whatever. It is certainly competent for Conit by striking out the clause or removal for does he do it? By the appointment of another gress, if it thinks proper, to declare that all acts done,” &c.

person to that position, and the man in the salaries shall be paid annually or serni-annually. Mr. CLARK, (to Mr. TRUMBULL.) Move to position at Cincinnati continues to exercise the Would the Senator from Ohio think that a very strike out and insert your original proposition. | duties until his successor is commissioned and | great hardship? I do not suppose there would

Mr. TRUMBULL. Yes, sir; f will move qualified, and then the papers are turned over be any great controversy if a proposition was
to strike out the amendment as it now stands to him. In the case of post offices, the Post | made in the Senate to pay salaries every six
and insert the original proposition as printed : Office Department I think there is a law to months or every nine months instead of every

Sec. -, And be it further enacted, That no person that effect; I am not very familiar with the three months, if it was found more convenient
exercising or performing, or undertaking to exerciso statutes on that subject-have a way of sending in the transaction of the business of the Gov-
or perform, the duties of any ofice which by law is
required to be filled by the advice and consent of the

out a special agent, sometimes without any ernment.
Senate, shall before confirmation by the Senate re- appointment at all as postmaster, to take charge That is all that this proposition amounts to,
ceive any salary or compensation for his services, of the office; but the mode of creating a vacancy | and the object had in view is simply to obtain
unless such person becommissioned by the President
to fill up a vacancy which has happened by death,

by removal is by the appointment of another the advice and consent of the Senate upon resignation, or expiration of term, during the recess person to the office. That is the practice. That | these appointments, which is the spirit of the of the Senate and since its last adjournment.

is one answer that I have to make to the sug- Constitution. The intention of the framers of Is the pending amendment now under my gestion of the Senator.

the Constitution was that officers should be control? If it is I withdraw it.

In answer to the suggestion which has been || appointed by the President, by and with the The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is not, made during all this discussion in reference advice and consent of the Senate. Whenever having been amended by the Senate.

to this measure, that it should not go on an that is not done, it is an exceptional case. Mr. SHERMAN. Before the question is appropriation bill, but that we should have | There are some exceptional cases.

What are put, I wish to show the precise legal meaning a general bill on this subject, I beg leave to they? They are cases where vacancies happen of this amendment. The Senator has read it, say that no such bill will ever become a law. during the recess of the Senate. It is not proand I ask him to say whether in case of removal That is very clear, and everybody, I think, in | posed by this amendment to interfere with those after the adjournment of the Senate, the amend- the Senate must be fully aware of it. There exceptional cases. The framers of the Conment would not still prevent payment to the are differences of opinion upon that subject stitution thought they were the only cases it officer who takes the place of the person re- which I am quite satisfied would prevent the was necessary to except from the general rule moved. Undoubtedly it does, and therefore enactment of a law. The Senator from Maine which they prescribed for the appointment of it is subject to all the arguments that were is for such a statute made perfect so that he | officers, which was by the action of the Presi. urged against it yesterday. The amendment could vote for it; but when it was perfected || dent and the Senate conjointly. That is all as it now stands only provides that in case of and made perfect so that the Senator from there is to this amendment. I have no sort of a vacancy caused by death, resignation, or Maine could vote for it there would be a great feeling about it. As I believe I have once expiration of term during the session of the many members of the Senate, I apprehend, || before remarked, I was led to take some part Senate, the President shall have the power to who would not vote for it in that shape. I have || in it in consequence of the amendment first fill the vacancy; but if the vacancy happens by had some conversation with Senators, and I || proposed by the Senator from Missouri, and in a removal made during a recess of the Senate, am quite aware, I think, from the conversa- endeavoring to aid in perfecting that amend. then the person who is appointed to fill the tions I have had, that no general bill limiting || ment. It is for the Senate to determine. vacancy, under the amendment as it now stands and defining the power of removal from office Mr. SHERMAN. I certainly will not procould receive no compensation until the Senate by the President would receive even the sanc- long this debate, because nothing new is elicited acts upon his nomination. It is therefore sub- tion of a majority of the Senate, and if it did || by it. I will simply refer to the last point ject to all the objections I have named, and of a majority I am quite sure it would not of stated by the Senator from Illinois, that this indeed more, because the Senator, in order to two thirds, and unless it had two thirds there does not operate as a great hardship. It does obviate some of the objections named endeav- would be very little probability of its ever operate as a great hardship. For instance, ored to qualify the amendment by providing becoming a law.

suppose the Senate should consider the nomi for certain cases of removal for cause. But The constitutional question is not involved | nation subsequently, when it is before them, take the case of a defaulter who is removed in the payment of an officer. Every one ad- and should reject it, then the man is without after the adjournment of the Senate, and some mits-ihe Senator from Ohio admits-that we his pay entirely, and we have the spectacle of one is appointed to fill his vacancy ; that is not may control the money of the Government; a public officer holding an office, performing a vacancy caused by death, resignation, or that we may appropriate to the payment of the duties of that office, and getting no pay. expiration of term, but it is a vacancy caused officers what we please, and when we please. Take the case of a Cabinet minister. Under by removal for cause. In such a case as that, I believe the practice of the Government is to this provision, if a man is appointed a Cabinet the incumbent who is legally appointed to a pay most of its officers quarterly. I am not minister during the recess, he cannot get any vacancy caused by a removal would not be able sure about that, whether all the salaries are pay until we meet at the next session, with a to draw his salary. I therefore trust that the paid quarterly or annually. This provision prospect over him of being rejected. A poor Senator from Illinois will the suggestion that is proposed would not prevent the salary man could not hold the office, requiring a large of the Senator from Missouri, and withdraw from being paid annually. It would prevent expenditure. It is not the mere delay of paythis amendment, and let the subject be referred the salary from being paid for a short time. ment. If it was certain that he would get the to the committee of which he is chairman, to As the law now stands I think it will be found || pay whe the Senate acted, he might possibly frame a law on the subject. There is no dif- that salaries are never paid oftener than quar- borrow the money and pay his expenses; but ficulty in doing so. This amendment is still terly. Perhaps I ought not to say never; but this amendment provides that no money shall subject to all the objections that have been I think the general practice of the Government be paid out of the funds appropriated unless made to it.

is to pay salaries quarterly. I may be in error, || he shall be confirmed by the Senate. That Mr. TRUMBULL. I have two answers to though, in reference to that. I am not sure certainly is a great hardship, for a man to hold the Senator from Ohio. The first is, that there what the period is, but if it is quarterly they an office the pay of which is contingent on the is no such thing as a vacancy in the case that have to wait three months for it, and the long. || action of a political body. he speaks of. A removal is not made and a est recess that ever takes place

Then again the Senator says that the amendvacancy occasioned, and then a person ap; Mr. FESSENDEN. Some are paid monthly; ment, as it now stands, does not effect any. pointed; the President does not remove and Mr. TRUMBULL. Are the judges paid | thing more than to prevent the President from then appoint, but he appoints to the office, and monthly?

unconstitutionally filling a vacancy that occurs until the man is commissioned and qualified, Mr. ŠHERMAN. AN revenue officers are during the session of the Senate. That certhe office is not vacant. That is the way where | paid monthly, and postmasters quarterly. tainly is not the meaning of it. It provides the removal is made by the appointment of a Mr. TRUMBULL. How are foreign min. that if a vacancy is caused by any other reason new man. It is not done by removing an officer isters paid?

than death, resignation, or expiration of term, and leaving the position vacant. Now, where Mr. SUMNER. Quarterly.

it shall not be filled until the incumbent is cona nomination is sent to the Senate-and it is Mr. TRUMBULL. I understand foreign | firmed. Take the common case of a removal. occurring here every day--A B is nominated ministers are paid quarterly and postmasters | Suppose after this session is closed the Presifor marshal in one of the districts of Ohio in quarterly, I presumed that was the general law, | dent should see fit, for good cause, to remove place of C D removed. The Senator from Ohio | though I had not referred to it recently with a an officer. He may remove him. That is one is aware that C D goes on exercising the duties view of ascertaining how that might be. The act. He may appoint another. That is anof that office, and is not out of the office until | longest possible period they would have to wait other act. A B is confirmed and gets his commission and would be nine months. The average period Mr. TRUMBULL. Is that ever done? qualities; and does not turn over the papers of when Congress is not in session is not over six Mr. SHERMAN. I cannot say that it is his office until then. The removal is conse- months; and taking the average, it is possible, ever done, but the act of removal and the act quent on the confirmation and acceptance of if an officer was appointed the day after Con- of appointment are separate and distinct things. the office by his successor. If we reject the gress adjourned, that he might have to wait | It is the usual practice to appoint a new innew, the old marshal continues and is not out three quarters for his salary instead of waiting cumbent when you make a vacancy ; but the of office at all. That is an occurrence which one quarter. That would be no very great vacancy may be made and then the new appointhappens here daily. That is not a vacancy hardship upon any one. As the lawnow stands, ment. contemplated by the Constitution.

he may have to wait a quarter for his salary; Mr. TRUMBULL. That was the very point

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that I made, that the vacancy is not made until the new incumbent is appointed. Is not that the universal practice? And the vacancy does not occur is the new appointinent fails to be confirmed.

Mr. SHERMAN. The Constitution provides very clearly that the President shall have power to fill up vacancies that may happen during the recess of the Senate. The vacancy must first happen, but how? This amendment points out three ways by which it may happen-death, resignation, or expiration of term. All of them must be before the appointment. Now, add to that the other cause of vacancy, a removal

Mr. TRUMBULL. Is that a vacancy?

Mr. SHERMAN. Certainly, it is a vacancy caused by removal; so that it seems to me we ought not to deceive ourselves with the language. Indeed the proposition as it now stands is broader than it was before, when we voted upon it yesterday; that is, it does not provide for the case of a removal for cause. I hope we shall come to a vote upon it and vote it down.

Mr. STEWART. I think I understand the point intended to be made by the Senator from Illinois, but I do not think it is well taken. He says that an appointment to fill the place of an oficer removed is not an appointment to fill a vacancy, for the reason that the vacancy does not occur until after the appointment has been confirmed, if I understand him correctly. Now, I submit that the President cannot fill the office unless a vacancy occurs at the same time, because if the incumbent remains in the office the appointee cannot fill that office. Then he is appointed for the purpose of filling a vacancy which shall occur, although it may not be in existence at that particular moment, by reason of removal which is to take place. I do not think it matters whether that vacancy exists in præsenti, or whether it is to be created by a subsequent removal; the practical operation is the same, so far as I can see.

Mr. SUMNER. There seems to be an abuse that has grown up recently which all have recognized in the course of this debate, and I believe there is no one who is not willing to apply a remedy; I mean the irregular exercise of the appointing power by the President during the recess of the Senate; and there are at least two different classes of cases in which that irregular application of the appointing power appears. The first class is where offices have been left vacant by the Senate at the time of its adjournment, and yet the President after the adjournment has proceeded to fill them up. It is a mild expression to say that the course of the President under such circumstances is irregular. I insist that it is positively wrong, that it is a departure from his duties, and an infringement of the rights of the Senate as a coördinate branch of the Government. All will agree that that class of cases may be treated under the head of abuse. I insist that it is our duty if possible to apply a remedy. I think all who hear me will agree that it is our duty if possible to apply a remedy:

Then there is another class of cases, and that is, where the President, to gratify, perhaps, a party spirit, without adequate cause, without any malfeasance or misfeasance, undertakes to create a vacancy.

We feel that that course is at least irregular, and that it is an abuse.

Now, I take it we are all disposed to apply a remedy to these two classes of cases, and the question is how we are to reach them. There are two ways proposed. One is by a bill which shall undertake to regulate the whole subject of removals and secure to the Senate its share in that power; in other words, secure to the Senate the same power over removals which it has over appointments, and it is insisted that that is constitutional. Sir, I am disposed to agree with those who insist that the Senate ought to liave a share in the power over reinovals. When Senators, however, go further and say that in endeavoring to apply a remedy for the abuses to which I have referred, we should wait for the passage of that bill, I must be permitted to say that I cannot join

39TH CONG. 1st Sess.- No. 154.

them. I am not willing to postpone a remedy to fill up a vacancy which has happened by death, for existing abuses to so distant a day.

resignation, or expiration of term during the recess The general bill which it is proposed to

of the Senate and since its last adjournment. introduce, and which my excellent friend from Mr. CONNESS. I have not spoken on this Missouri has in charge, and which we know subject since it has been before the Senate, has been commended by a distinguished citi

and do not desire now to do more than explain zen not in public life, Mr. Hamilton, of New the vote I shall give. I have voted consistYork, in a pamphlet which is on some of our ently for the amendment offered and as pertables, raises a great question of constitutional fected by the Senator from Illinois ; but in the law which has been under discussion from the shape in which it now is I think it is reason. days of Washington. I know not how the i ably obnoxious to the objections made by the Senate, even after debate, in our day and under Senator from Ohio, that great injury, and the pressure of recent events, will be disposed really a wrong that we liave not a right to perto pass upon it. It is a great question, I say; petrate, may result from its adoption, as a question of constitutional law. Do not, sir, against persons appointed who would be enpostpone the remedy for existing abuses till

titled to the offices to which they were apthe final decision of that great question. When pointed, and to the salaries belonging to those that bill is introduced, I, for one, shall be ready | offices. The amendment would be particularly to meet it and discuss it at all points, whether severe as against such persons legitimately and on grounds of constitutional law or on grounds properly appointed on the Pacific coast. The of expediency; but I am unwilling that a case

distance between that country and this makes of practical duty shall be postponed thus in

it already a matter of the greatest possible definitely; and that brings me to the precise inconvenience, often very serious hardship, question before the Senate, what shall we do? in regard to the payment of salaries due. In Why, sir, act at once and according to the

the shape in which the amendinent stands, I best of our ability in order to apply the remedy cannot conceive that there is enough to be to the abuses which I have indicated.

gained compared to the objections that are And, sir, what is the remedy which may be || properly, as I think, made to it. I should like applied? I insist that after ample discussion

io still continue and vote for a proposition in this Chamber we have substantially arrived at

which should regulate this question; and the statement of law made in the proposition of

whether others support such a proposition or my friend from Illinois. I doubt if now we can not, when properly prepared and brought do better than that. I believe if that he adopted before the Senate, as we are now promised it will, to a certain extent, apply a remedy. I that it will be, it shall receive my vote and do not think the remedy will be complete; but support. there will be something in it which will oper- Mr. WILSON. I voted yesterday with great ate as a check upon the exercise of this irreg: reluctance for the reconsideration of this measular power by the President, and which will ure, because I did not desire to separate from help to remove those abuses that we all recog. gentlemen in whose judgment I have great nize. For one, I am glad that the Senator | confidence. My own judgment is that it is from Illinois has brought forward the proposi. unwise to press this measure upon this bill at tion, and I hope that he will not now, at this this time." I do not deem it wise to press it last moment, be a laggard. I hope that he for this reason: the member of the Finance will persevere, and press it to a vote. If the Committee who has the care of this bill [Mr. Senate will not adopt it, then let the Senate | SermAN] is opposed to it. That gentleman be responsible, as I shall think, for this aban- we all recognize here as one of our true and donment of duty. I know that Senators may reliable friends. The Senator from Maine, the hesitate because they may think it inexpedient, chairman of the Committee on Finance, obor because they think the remedy does not go jects to putting it upon this measure. Other far enough ; but no one, as I understand, bes- Senators, true and tried men, in whom we have itates on grounds of constitutional law. No confidence, make this objection. It did not one doubts that the proposition of the Senator seem to nie wise to press this measure upon from Illinois is in all respects completely con- this bill with a divided vote among our friends, stitutional. It is said that certain inconven- so I voted for reconsideration. I will go as iences may grow out of it; but do not incon- far as any member of the Senate in the proper veniences, and more than inconveniences, grow | legislation to correct a great abuse; but we out of the system as we have it now? Not on have time enough to mature and act upon such account of those inconveniences, not on ac- a bill, and if we pass such a bill, and it fails to count of anything which has been said in this become a law, there will be other bills upon debate, can you hesitate. All that you are which this same proposition may be moved, called now to do is to take advantage of your and upon which the Senate may put it with at power over the purse-strings of the nation. It least as much propriety as upon this bill. I belongs to you to say when an officer shall be believe that it is necessary that some action paid and when he shall not be paid. Nobody should be had by the Congress for the pro; can doubt your constitutional power to that || tection of our friends throughout the United extent. Take advantage of it, then, and in States, and yet I do not entertain any great that

way, if in no other, place a proper limita- || apprehensions in regard to the political inflution upon

this admitted abuse. It is on this ence of the appointments which are made and ground that I shall persevere with my excel- which are threatened to be made. lent friend from Illinois to the end in voting A person going into an office, recognized as for his proposition.

a man of capacity and character, representing The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques

the sentiments of the community in which he tion is on the amendment to the amendment. lives, of those who have come into power, will Mr. SHERMAN. I suppose there is no

exercise a certain degree of influence; but the objection to that.

putting in of a man against the sentiments of The amendment to the amendment was

the men who made this Administration, a man agreed to.

who wears simply the collar of the Executive Mr. SHERMAN. Now, on the amendment

and violates his faith, will have no other influitself I ask for the yeas and nays.

ence than to excite the scorn, contempt, and The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The yeas

indignation of the people. I tell Senators, and and nays have already been ordered.

I tell the President, that the American people Mr. COWAN. I ask for the reading of the

are in no condition to be bought or sold by amendment, as amended.

Government patronage, and I believe the use The Secretary read it, as follows:

of it for any such purpose will weaken whoever

undertakes to use it, whether in the executive Sec.—. And be it further enacted, That no person

branch of the Government or in these Halls. exercising or performing, or undertaking to exercise or perform, the duties of any ofbee which by law is

I believe that ninety-nine out of every hundred required to be filled by the advice and consent of the of the men who put this Administration in Senato, sball, before confirmation by the Senate, receivo any salary or compensation for his services,

power agree in principle and in policy, and unless such person be commissioned by the President I believe that any attempt to use the offices of your friends?

this Government to control the elections against amendment, no matter what it is, he is gener- bill it was always right. The Senator from them will signally and ignominiously fail. ally against it. I say generally; I believe it is Vermont says it is right. The Senator from

I am, therefore, in favor of going just as far almost universally true, and I do not know any- Vermont on one side of me, and the Senator as we can go in maturing and passing a proper body, unless it is the good-natured Senator from from Massachusetts on the other, two righteous measure to correct abuses, and to protect the Massachusetts, that can ever get an amendment men, never make a mistake, and they expect men who are filling the public offices against so perfectly right that they will agree to it. everybody to go with them Sir, I think they the attempt, whether it come from men in this But, sir, the Senator tells us that he is should have some allowance for their brother Chamber or out of it, to remove faithful officers opposed to putting on this measure here by a Senators and suppose that it is very possible who adhere to their opinions, and appoint such divided vote among his friends. That is the that they may be right, that it is barely possible men as the postmaster at Hartford, whom we extraordinary part of the Senator's speech. Sir, || that a majority of their friends may be right have confirmed this year, and who has turned I am reminded of the juryman who had been and they may be wrong, that it is barely poshis back upon usmå man who was lingering shut up with "eleven obstinate men. “Di. sible that they ought not to be so very strong in around here last year with $10,000 of money vided friends!" Who divides them? How is their convictions that they know what is right in his pocket to influence and control Congress. this amendment defeated? Has the Senator and exactly how it ought to be done.

I think we have time enough, as was said by from Massachusetts looked around the Senate Now, sir, I am not disposed to go over the the Senator from Maine this morning, to pre- and seen who is voting with him? He prefers grounds of this measure again. As it now pare such a bill and act upon it; and if we failin to go with his enemies rather than his friends, stands before the Senate, it is simply a propothat we shall still have time enough to take up does he? What chance was there to carry the sition not to pay men put in office, as I think the measure now proposed or some other weas- proposition of the Senator from Vermont (Mr. every Senator on the floor will admit, in vioure of a similar character, and put it upon some POLAND] here except by Democratic allies? lation of the Constitution ; for if the Constituother appropriation bill. We can do that to- What chance to reconsider this proposition by tion means anything, it means that the Presi. ward the close ofthe session; we can do it after

dent can only fill up offices in case of vacancies we have done what was suggested yesterday by “Call you that backing your friends," to

which happened during the recess of the Sen. the Senator from Nevada, after we have devel- | unite with your enemies to beat them, and then ate; and if the vacancy has not happened oped a plan that we approve and that will be come into the Senate here and boast that you during the recess of the Senate he has no conducive to the interests of the country. are opposed to dividing your friends? It is a authority under the Constitution to fill it. In

For this reason I do not think there is any curious way indeed of backing one's friends, to reference to the power of removal and appointhaste in this matter or any occasion for pressing unite with the enemy. Does not the Senator ment to offices, which are one act, the incumthis amendment now; and I am very much sur. know that three fourths of the friends that bent holding until bis successor is appointed prised at the earnestness with which it is pressed. he acts with are in favor of this measure? And and qualified, there no vacancy exists. That I think it of far more importance that whatever he talks about “dividing them. He is the was the opinion of Mr. Hamilton. That was measure we agree upon shall receive the care- twelfth juryman, and the other eleven divide not the case the happening of a vacancy, ful and deliberate judgment of our friends, and from him, and he is opposed to having any because, as I said when up before, the vacancy that they shall act together, rather than that divided jury! Why do not the eleven men contingent on the appointinent and qualifiwe shall press this amendment by a divided come and act with him? The Senator from cation of the successor, and there is no point vote, with some of the ablest and most trusted Massachusetts asks, I think eighteen Senators, of time when the office is vacant; and if the members of the Senate opposed to putting it all his friends, to go to him and a few others successor fails to qualify after he is appointed, upon this bill.

who are voting with the Opposition in this the incumbent holds on except in cases where It is said that if this bill does not become body

the officer is suspended and the office is put in law because of the putting of this amendment Mr. WILSON. Ten others.

charge of a special officer of some of the upon-it, somebody else will be held responsi- Mr. TRUMBULL. Himself and ten others Departments. ble for its failure. I do not agree to that doc | voting with the Opposition in this body. One Mr. DOOLITTLE. Will the Senator from trine. If we pass a bill and it does not become third vote against two thirds of his friends, and Illinois allow me to ask him a question right a law, the country will judge upon its merits as then he complains of a division of his friends, on that point? I will put this case: suppose between us and any other branch of the Gov- and he divides off and goes with the enemy in that in vacation the collector of customs in the ernment. If we put it upon an appropriation a political point of view. Sir, that is the most city of New York is found by the President to bill, and the appropriation bill fails, the peo- extraordinary argument that I have ever heard be actually squandering the public moneys, can ple will judge not of the proposition itself, but in the Senate, and is only to be illustrated, as I the President reinove him from the office? of the propriety of putting it upon an appropri- || have said, by the eleven obstinate jurors who Mr. TRUMBULL. That is a question not ation bill. That is my judgment on this bill; would not agree with the twelfth man.

involved in this matter at all. This has nothand so feeling, though it is with a great deal He is for a general bill. How many of your || ing to do with it. The proposition before the of reluctance that I differ from friends in whom allies that are voting down this proposition will Senate has nothing to do with such a case. It I have the greatest confidence, and whose wishes vote for a general hill? How do you expect is contended that the power has been exercised I always like to comply with if possible, I shall to carry your general bill? Here are eighteen by the President as a general thing, in vacation, vote against putting this amendment upon the of your friends who are for this measure. Do of removing a man and putting another in his bill now pending:

you expect to carry your general bill without || place. Mr. TRUMBULL. Mr. President, I am not them? How many votes do you get for it? Mr. DOOLITTLE. The question is whether a little surprised at the character of the speech || Ten. The Senator tells me ten. He will not the President cannot remove a man and create of the Senator from Massachusetts, [Mr. Wil- il find the Senator from Kentucky and the Sen- a vacancy. Suppose he finds a collector or sox.] I will endeavor to notice his objections | ator from Delaware voting with him for his customs stealing the money, can he not put to this amendment, each of them, but his main | general bill. When he brings that in, he will him out of office? Must he allow him to stay one I will notice a little more at length. His find that he cannot carry it, that his allies will in office until some other man is appointed and first objection, as I understood him, was that not stand by him.

confirmed by the Senate to take his place? the member of the Finance Committee having Sir, I am making these remarks not hy way Mr. TRUMBULL. I am not aware of his charge of this bill [Mr. SHERMAN] objected to of imputing anything to Senators who differ ever dismissing a man under such circumthis amendment, and therefore he was not in- with me in reference to this measure. They stances. clined to put it upon this bill. The Senator doubtless think it is not best to put it on here; Mr. DOOLITTLE. I should like the Sepfrom Massachusetts knows that the member of but I am making these remarks in reply to the ator to answer the question whether he belieres the Finance Committee having charge of an charge that we are dividing our friends. The the President has power to do that or not. appropriation bill objects to any amendments Senator from Massachusetts has bronght it here Mr. TRUMBULL. The Senator wishes to proposed to be put upon it always. He con- and charges upon me and those with whom I ask me a question not involved in this matter siders it his duty, having charge of the bill, to act, two thirds of our friends, that we are di- at all. I am not on the question of removals; object to extraneous matter being put on it; || viding them, and it is in reply to that that I I have not argued to any extent the question but I think there is no member of the Senate say the responsibility is on his own head, that of removals from office. who has oftener put such measures upon such he has deserted his friends in this respect when Mr. DOOLITTLE. I understood the Sen

ator from Illinois to say that it was impossible himself.

him general bill that there could be a vacancy created by the Mr. WILSON. My amendments were always stands no chance at all to be carried by the President in making a removal; that when a right. [Laughter.] forces with whom he is now acting.

man was in office, the only way to put him out Mr. TRUMBULL. Of course they were ex- Mr. POLAND. We expect you to vote for it. was to push him out by pushing another man cellent amendments when the Senator from Mr. TRUMBULL. The Senator from Ver. into the office. That I understood to be his Massachusetts offered them; he never offers mont quietly says that he expects me to vote argument. any other. [Laughter.] There is no doubt of for that. By what right? Why do you expect Mr. TRUMBULL. My understanding is that. In that respect I am not equally fortunate. me to vote with ten of you? Why expect the that the President never did remove a man I am aware that the chairman of the commit- eleven jurymen to go over to the one man? except by pushing another in his place. There tee, whether it be the Senator from Maine or Mr. POLAND. Because it is right.

are cases where he has put a special officer in the Senator from Ohio who has charge of an Mr. TRUMBULL. Because it is right! Well, charge of an office for the time being. There appropriation bill, is always averse to amend. that is the same reason that the Senator from are grades in all these offices; the Postmaster ments, and the moment he sees any member Massachusetts gave a moment ago, that when General has special agents authorized by law of the Senate rise with a view of offering an be offered an amendment to an appropriation to travel all over the United States and author

hilhe ethan the Senator from Massachusetts be closerts anmajority of them and goes with big

ized under certain circumstances to take pos- me if I do not admit that when a man dies ment of the Government, for I do not think it session of the nails and take possession of a there is a vacancy, [laughter, ) and then wants is proper here to consider that question. What post office. That is done sometimes; but if to ask some other question, why, sir, it is will be its influence among the people of the the President ever dismissed an officer except trifling. in pursuance of a law that was passed author


country? The Senator from Vermont [Mr.

POLAND) told us yesterday that the people were izing it to be done, as is the case in some Mr. TRUMBULL. I shall be through in a not anxious about executive power and patroninstances in the military service-if he ever moment. I will not yield any further. I de- age over them; they were more fearful of its undertook to dismiss an officer and to leave cline to yield any further to that class of ques- influence over us; and I believe that he uttered the office vacant without designating some- tions. (Laughter.]

a great truth when he made that declaration. body temporarily, ad interim, to take charge I have said, sir, I believe, all that I designed The Senator from Illinois chides me for act. of it, I am not aware of it. It has happened to say in rising, which was chiefly to reply to ing with gentlemen on the other side of the here with Cabinet ministers that sometimes a the extraordinary speech of the Senator from Chamber. Well, sir, it so happened, not long person has been designated to perform the Massachusetts, who charged upon those of us ago, that that Senator was found acting with duties ad interim of a Cabinet minister ; but I supporting this measure an attempt to divide | gentlemen on the other side of the Chamber, have yet to learn of an instance where an the party; and having replied to that I am and for one I did not reproach himn with so officer has been removed and nobody put in willing to yield the floor to him or the Senator | acting. charge. It seems to me such a case never from Wisconsin or anybody else that wants it. MI: TRUMBULL. But I did not accuse would occur; or if it did occur it would be, as Mr. WILSON. Mr. President, I followed | anybody of desiring to divide our friends. is suggested to me, safe to submit the matter the Senator from Illinois and voted for his Mr. WILSON. I have not accused the Sen. to the consideration of the Senate whether we measure. I saw, on looking around the Senate, ator of a desire to divide the party. I verely would not give compensation.

that some of our ablest and most trusted Sen- referred to the fact that there was a division Mr. STEWART. I should like to ask the ators felt it to be their duty to vote against it. of opinion in regard to the propriety of putting Senator a question. I do not know whether I I did not then believe, I do not now believe, this amendment on this bill not a division in understand him correctly. Does he contend that any principle is involved in putting upon regard to the amendment itself, but as to the that appointing a person to an office without in this bill this measure. I thought the Congress policy of putting it upon this bill. That is a form removing the incumbent, that adopting of the United States would be in session for matter of policy and not of principle. Others the usual course of putting one out and putting sixty or seventy days to come; that we should of our friends divided upon the resolution the other in, is not appointing a man to fill a have abundant time to mature carefully and which, it will be remembered, was passed by vacancy?

act upon a proper measure, one not sprung upon the House of Representatives early in the ses. Mr. TRUMBULL. I understand the Sen- us here in the Senate as an amendment to an- sion, proposing to amend the Constitution in ator's question, and I say it is not appointing a other measure, one not dragged in here by a regard to the basis of representation. I then man to fill a vacancy; there is no vacancy in few of our friends, without consultation with regarded and every day of my life since I that case.

It has occurred here within two others, but a measure brought into the Senate have regarded that division, resulting in the weeks, it is a matter now of public notoriety, by a committee, carefully framed and taken up defeat of the resolution, as a deplorable calamthat there was a person nominated to the Sen- and examined, and deliberately acted upon. ity. Nineteen Union State Legislatures were ate as collector of internal revenue in the dis- It is well known that this question of execu- then in session, and if it had been adopted trict of St. Louis in place of another man tive power has been discussed in Congress on they would at once have ratified it; and then, removed. That is the way the communication several occasious by the most eminent men of according to the theory held by eminent Sen. to the Senate reads. The Senate rejected the our country. The power of the President to ators and Representatives, it would to-day be nominee. Now, is not the previous incumbent remove was carried in the Senate, originally, a part of the Constitution of the country. But there? Has he been removed? If we had || by the casting vote of Vice President Adams; now, whatever amendment we pass, other confirmed the nominee, would it have been a and a majority of the men in the Senate at that Legislatures must be elected to act upon it; confirmation to the vacancy? It would have time, who had been members of the Convention and the peril of carrying all these elections been a confirmation to take the place of the that framed the Constitution, voted against this everybody can see. man removed, and there never would be an power of the President.

This same question Sir, it seems to me that the Senator from instant of time when there would have been a of executive power came up on other occasions, Illinois has no right to rise here and reproach vacancy.

especially in the debate on Foot's resolution, any of us who doubt the expediency of attachMr. STEWART. But must there not be a when it was discussed with great ability by || ing this measure to this bill, and he has no vacancy necessarily before he can enter upon Robbins, of Rhode Island, Clayton, of Dela- right to charge us with dividing the party be. the office? Does the Senator contend that ware, Barton, of Missouri, and other Senators, cause a portion of us feel it to be our duty to both can be in office at the same time, and that in perhaps the ablest debate the Senate of the object to that course. I will vote for a measure there is not necessarily a vacancy happening | United States ever knew. In 1835, on Mr. to correct this abuse as an independent measat some time, and that the appointment is not Calhoun's report on executive power and influ- ure ; and if toward the close of the session for the purpose of putting a man in that va. ence, the question was again elaborately de- such a measure shall fail, not through any fault cancy whenever it does occur? No matter how bated. It is a question on which the most of the Senate or of the House of Representashort a time there is, one must go out and the eminent minds of the country have divided. tives, I will vote with the Senator from Ilinois other come in. They cannot both be in the Mr. Hamilton said that

to place it upon any other bill upon which it office at the same time.

"The terms 'which may have happened.' imply can be placed, and let it take its chances and Mr. TRUMBULL. I suppose the Senator casualty, and denote such as, having been once filled, sbare its fate. But at this time I do not fear from Nevada wants to demonstrate the mathhave become vacant by accidental circumstances.

that anything is lost by keeping this amendematical proposition that two bodies cannot be Daniel Websterthought as Hamilton thought, ment off this bill. The discussion will do good; in the same place at the same time. I


and Chancellor Kent thought as Ilamilton it has called our attention to the subject; and it is possible for the Senator from Nevada to thought. Mr. Webster said here in the Senate: I believe in the light of this debate a measure go out of his seat and somebody else to come “I must still express my conviction that tho de- may be framed which shall bring together those into it, and that there never is an instant of

cision of Congress in 1789, which separated the power of us who stood together in passing the most time when the office is vacant, no more than

of removal from the power of appointment, was

founded on an erroneous construction of the Con- popular measure that was ever enacted by the there is a time when the office of the President stitution.

Congress of the United States and one that has of the United States is vacant. It is not a

"I have the clearest conviction that they (the Con

the deepest hold upon the heart and conscience vacancy. That is not the vacancy contemplated

vention] looked to no other mode of displacing an
officer than hy impeachment or by the regular ap-

of the country—the civil rights bill. I believe by the Constitution of the United States. pointment of another person to the same place. that we can pass such a measure in such a Mr. DOOLITTLE. I will ask the Senator “I believe it to be within the just power of Congress to reverse the decision of 1789, and I mean to

shape that it will receive, as it ought to receive, one question. hold myself at liberty to act hereafter upon that

the confidence and support of the whole coun. Mr. TRUMBULL. I am willing to be cat- question as I shall think the safety of the Govern- try. But, sir, I do not complain of the active echised. ment and of the Constitution may require."

Senator from Illinois; I know his pertinacity Mr. DOOLITTLE. In vacation cannot an Sir, I did not call the Senator from Illinois and his determination, and how he always clings officer resign his ofiice and his resignation be to account and charge him with dividing our to any proposition that he makes. I sometimes accepted, and will there not then be a vacancy? friends; I made no charges whatever. I uttered | think it would be a great deal easier for him to

M. TRUMBULL. Have I not been argu. a few modest words in explanation of my own carry through important measures by a little ing for an hour that that was the very vacancy action, and the Senator assumes that I charged more of the spirit of deference to others and which the Constitution authorized to be filled, him with an attempt to divide our friends in of conciliation. that that was a vacancy, and that such cases the Senate. I expressed my regret to see this Mr. DOOLITTLE. Mr. President, the word were the only cases of vacancy, and that a amendment pressed upon us when some of the vacancy" I shall not discuss at length. I removal is not the vacancy contemplated by most eminent men of the Senate were opposed will state only two or three cases where, in my the Constitution. When the Senator from to putting it upon this bill, and expressed their judgment, vacancies happen. If the officer Wisconsin, after I have repeated over the words readiness to vote for a bill carefully and prop- dies there is of course a vacancy. If he should of the Constitution, and argued to show as well | erly prepared and brought in as an independent remove out of the country there would be a as I could that the vacancy which the President measure.

Until we have tried that, why press vacancy in the office. The Senator from Illiwas authorized to fill up by a commission was this? If we adopt this as an amendment to the nois would not doubt that. If he should resign a vacancy, occasioned by a resignation, death, il present bill by a bare majority, what will be its there would be a vacancy, provided the resig. or otherwise, as is provided here in the amend- influence in the other House? I will say noth- nation were accepted. The vacancy by resig. ment, rises, and with a look of wisdom asks l ing about its influence in the executive depart- nation does not happen till the President or the head of a Department acting under him from time to time that to the returned and dis- the President for the last four months to strike accepts the resignation ; and the question I abled soldiers who have served in the war for down the men who elected him and to reward put to the Senator from Illinois about resig- || the Union, other things being equal, the public men who would desert the principles, the ideas nation requires an act of the President or the offices should be given. The Senator from the policy, and the measures of those who pai head of a Department under him to make the Massachusetts has advocated that. Our State this Administration in power. Faithful, true, vacancy. The President takes part in making | Legislatures have resolved to do the same thing. || tried, and honest men have been removed from the vacancy; the man cannot make it alone Our own party Union conventions throughout office to make way for men who had no claims by mere resignation.

the country resolved to do it. Occasionally upon office and who have simply shouted hosanMr. TRUMBULL. Does the Senator mean perhaps the President may have removed an nas to the President for the purpose of obtainto say that a judge of the Supreme Court of incumbent for the purpose of placing, in accord- | ing patronage and power. Was not a soldier the United States cannot resign without the ance with the spirit of the times and the demands removed in Philadelphia and a man who had consent of the President?

both of the resolutions of Congress and of the not the public confidence of our friends there Mr. DOOLITTLE. A judge of the Supreme | various Legislatures, a soldier of this descrip- appointed in his place? Court of the United States is not an officer tion in his place. There may be other cases, Mr. FESSENDEN. His name. under the President. and they are exceedingly rare-Senators can

Mr. WILSON. Sloanaker. Are there not Mr. TRUMBULL. Nor is any officer an point out but very few—where persons have

other cases? Here is a man appointed marofficer under the President; he is an officer of been removed not for opinion's sake, but some- shal in western Pennsylvania who was tried by the Government.

times for that personal invective and abuse court-martial, convicted, and dismissed the Mr. DOOLITTLE. Executive officers are upon the Administration which no Adminis- service, and I am told he would have gone to under the President, and responsible to the tration can tolerate with any respect for itself. prison if it had not been for the influence of President in the execution of the law. The I can assure the honorable Senator from Mas- friends. President is responsible for the execution of sachusetts that from all that I have seen, my Mr. COWAN. Who were the friends?” the laws and responsible that every executive judgment has come to the conclusion that there Mr. WILSON. I know that there are men officer under him shall execute the laws. He never has been a more tolerant chief exec- in this Capitol to-day who for the last three or is sworn to see that they do execute the laws; utive magistrate within my recollection than four months have been urging and pressing the he is the chief of the executive power, upon the one who is now occupying the presidential Executive to use the corrupt and corrupting whom the responsibility, by the Constitution, chair.

influences of public patronage for the purpose is placed, and therefore these officers are Mr. HOWE. Will my colleague allow me to of building up and constructing an independresponsible to him.

call his attention to a paragraph in the papers ? ent party-a party that has died before it was But, Mr. President, the Senator from Illi- Mr. DOOLITTLE. I do not read the news- born; and I know that there are men in this nois, with all his ingenuity to get around the papers much, and I pay very little attention to city-I mean the Blairs--who have been on question, did not answer the question I put to what the newspapers say. Latterly, sir, and voyages of discovery, hunting up and picking him. Suppose that the collector of customs for the last five or six months in relation to the out a public man here and there, and offering in the city of New York, immediately after the course which has been pursued by me, I have them the kingdoms of this world if they would adjournment of Congress, or at any time during || been the subject of so much misrepresenta- || betray us. the vacation, is found to be embezzling the tion and abuse that I cease to have very much I know that these things are so, and I know public money, is it true, as the Senator main- respect for the newspapers in these times. that a committee of this new party was got up, tains, that the President cannot create a vacancy, Mr. HOWE. I supposed this was a clause five of the members of which, I believe, have but that he is still in office and must remain in which my colleaguc had overlooked; it has not already declined because they do not belong to office until his successor is appointed and con- reference to his own course at all, but to the the concern and were captured without their firmed by the Senate? The proposition is mon- point which he is just now discussing. I would consent. Its object was to organize a party to strous. Put another case. Suppose he should like to call his attention to it.

be built up by public patronage. Sir, you become insane; suppose that the insanity of Mr. DOOLITTLE. I shall be through in a remember Scovel, of New Jersey; some of us the late collector of the city of New York, our few moments, and if my colleague wishes then remember him, how he came down here and esteemed friend, who, in a fit of insanity, threw to read from newspapers, I shall not object. blustered about, and declared that he was gohimself into the Hudson river, had shown itself Mr. HOWE. I shall not insist.

ing to elect a Senator from New Jersey against during the vacation, would it not be possible Mr. DOOLITTLE. I was simply saying, the President's policy. Now, what would you that the President of the United States should Mr. President, that I believe the Senator from think of a letter written by a public officer to remove him from the office and make a vacancy? | Massachusetts is taking counsel of his fears, another public officer in New Jersey saying, The Senator contends that the President can- and not of his judgment; and I believe another “The Secretary of the Treasury directs me by not make a vacancy in an office as long as the thing, that this unexampled proposition, never the order of the President to say to you that man is living and does not resign or leave heard of before in the seventy-seven years of you must remove a certain man in your emthe country, without thrusting another man in the existence of the Government, is not such a ployment, and in filling his place consult Mr. to push him out of office. That is a great proposition as the Senate ought to entertain. Scovel ??? It is well known and nnderstood fallacy.

Mr. WILSON. The Senator from Wiscon- ||that Mr. Scovel struts over New Jersey claimThe truth is, the power exists, and the Su- sin asks me if I referred to the present Execu- ing to control the public patronage in that preme Court have so decided, and such has tive in what I said of executive removals and State, and we have nominations before the been the practice of the Government for sev- abuses. I answer frankly that I did.

Senate now of his dictation. enty years; and I think that all who have pre- Sir, I wish simply to say this: during the When a public officer dies or resigns, or his ceded us, although there was some difference last summer and autumn we were assured that term of office expires, and the President of the of opinion at the time, are entitled to some the President was making an experiment in United States in casting about among the men consideration, and the practice of the Govern- organizing the rebellious States; we were told who elected him selects to fill that place a man ment for sixty or seventy years is entitled to that if it did not succeed, the remedy was in he thinks agrees more nearly with him than some consideration. The practice has been, the hands of Congress. We were told, also, with Congress, I make no complaint. I object that while the President could make a removal, that differences of opinion among friends in to his raising this issue among ourselves, and he could not fill an office without the consent || regard to these modes of reconstruction were I object to our raising it, and I do not raise it of the Senate, except in the vacation ; he could to be freely tolerated. The President went on upon him. But when a competent, faithful, not do it while the Senate was in session, so in the course he had marked out for himself. and honest public officer is discharged for no that the officer would not be entitled to take The rebel States were reorganized; and every other reason than that he believes in the prinpossession of the office or commence acting; one of those States reorganized since the 4th ciples, the policy, the aims, and the purposes but during the vacation, and until the Senate of March, 1865, is to-day as completely in the of the party of Union and liberty, the party does meet, he has that power.

hands of the rebels as it was the day Jeff. Davis that saved this country and made it a free I do not mean to go into any argument of was captured. Nearly every one of these States country, when such a man is struck down to this matter at length; I will simply state an- has elected rebels to Congress, three loyal men reward another man for mere partisan purposes other fact. My friend from Massachusetts, it in Virginia to the House, none from North Car- or to get up a little rebellion against this great seems to me, and some other gentlemen appear olina, South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Flor- organization that to-day holds twenty-three of to assume that there is a great abuse of exec- ida, Louisiana, one in Mississippi; none yet the twenty-fivc loyal States, I for one object to utive patronage. What do they mean? Do elected in Texas, where the election is yet to it. I object to it as an atteinpt to use the vast they refer to an abuse of executive power by come; Hamilton is fighting for principle and patronage and power of the Government of the the present Executive? There is no just ground for the cause, but he is to be overborne by the United States for the purpose of corrupting a for any such complaint. I say to the Senator influence and power of traitors. I fear he pure and true people, a people that bave given from Massachusetts, and he knows it well-it || receives no aid from this Administration. nearly three million soldiers and $3,000,000,000 is a matter spoken of in the papers—that it is This was the condition of the country when to their country to carry it through the late understood that even in his own Cabinet the Congress 'met. Congress, as in duty bound, rebellion. President tolerates differences of opinion; that cast about to see what was to be done, to see I will say to day what I believe to be true, men are in the Cabinet, one or more, who sym- | that these States should come in here, as I have and in saying it I make no assault upon the pathize with the Senator from Massachusetts once before said, loyal end foremost, and not President of the United States. I say that I in his peculiar views on reconstruction, and the rebel end foremost. The advocates of bringing believe the policy the President has felt it his President does not even remove a member of these States into the Government of the coun- duty to pursue, which he has pursued, and his Cabinet for opinion's sake.

try, rebel end foremost, through the public | which he seems to insist on pursuing, without It is true Congress has passed resolutions press and in other ways, have been calling on consulting the views of Congress, this uncer

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