SIR G. GREY said, the right hon. Gen- | It was a plan intended to work out a printleman had anticipated the objection he ciple of great importance, not only in ecwas about to make to the adoption of these clesiastical but in political appointments, clauses in connexion with the present Bill. namely, that where you had an office withThey related, no doubt, to a very useful out duties, if there were duties to be fulfiland important subject; but the right hon. led, you would have those duties discharged Gentleman wished to engraft them on a efficiently. No objections had been urged Bill which had been sent down from the against the plan by the right hon. Baronet House of Lords, and with which they had except one; but with respect to that he no immediate connexion. He had listened was in error, for the rights of patrons were to the observations of the right hon. Gen- not touched at all by any other clauses, as tleman, and, looking to the clauses them- he alleged. It was impossible, however, selves, he thought they involved so great not to admit that considerable energy and extensive a change that they ought to would be required on the part of Governbe carefully considered before they were ment to carry out the plan; but they were adopted, and ought also to form the sub- bound to manifest it. They had confessed ject of a separate Bill. It was quite clear, that, by the Act of 1840, the capitular too, that they could not be adopted in establishments were placed upon untenable their present shape. The right hon. Gen- ground; but they had not attempted to tleman proposed that canons should be place them upon a defensible ground at called upon to reside the same period as all. By requiring a canon to reside three deans; but the necessary consequence must months in the year, allowing him to remain be a further reduction in the number of a parochial clergyman, but giving him no canons. Their case was distinct from that capitular duties, they had made the arof the deans, and he was not prepared to rangement more absurd than it was before; consent to the same restrictions being ap- because he resided not long enough to do plied to them. He therefore could not as- any good in the cathedral town, but long sent to the adoption of these clauses as enough to weaken his usefulness as the connected with the present Bill. minister of a parish. Until they made a serious effort to remedy these defects, they would never do justice either to the interests of the Church or to the noble principles involved in our cathedral statutes.

MR. GLADSTONE wished he had heard a more distinct intimation of the sense of the Government on a matter that required to be carefully examined. The change made by the Bill of 1840 was in reality no reform; it mutilated the cathedral establishments indeed, and reduced the numbers of the canonries, but it attached no duties to the receipt of emoluments. The present proposal was a bona fide attempt to remedy the defects of the plan of 1840, and to recognise the principle that distinct and well-defined duties should be performed in return for all preferments in the Church. But, somehow or other, subjects like the present could never be entertained until the Session was so far advanced that it was difficult to draw the attention of the House to them. Even Gentlemen who were interested when the question was to attack the Ecclesiastical Commission, were absent; and, in fact, there was the utmost difficulty in inducing the House to lend its ear to the practical details of this part of the subject. The right hon. Baronet the Home Secretary said truly there was no reasonable chance of having the details considered now; but was a practical plan, prepared by his right hon. Friend with great pains and labour, to be disposed of in such a manner as so much waste paper?

MR. AGLIONBY said, there were cases in which ecclesiastical corporations took into their hands the whole of the tithes received by the ecclesiastical body, and no provision whatever was made for services within the parish. He did not believe that the Amendment of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for South Wiltshire would meet the particular case. hoped the Government would not lose sight of the Episcopal Commission.

He

MR. J. STUART said, it was perfectly plain, from the statement of the right hon. Member for South Wiltshire, that the neglect, he did not say of the present Government, but of successive Governments, had prevented these rich endowments from being applied to those purposes to which they were properly dedicated. After the able statement of the right hon. Gentleman, it was a disappointment to hear the extremely slight and unsatisfactory manner in which the right hon. Baronet the Secretary for the Home Department met the views he had expressed to the House. What was it to say, that this was a new Act of Parliament on a separate subject?

It was a subject eminently demanding the | in the general nature of the proposition of attention of Government, and too long the right hon. Gentleman the Member for neglected by the Government; by paying South Wiltshire, and he wished the House attention to the working of these clauses, Government would find that they could not bestow a greater boon than by bringing in a separate Act, the provisions of which tended to the same purpose as those which had been proposed by his right hon.

Friend.

down to individual emolument with no office. But this was being remedied in many places, among which he might mention Westminster. The Government had there assisted a little, for they had attached a stall each to the livings of St. Margaret's and St. John's. The right hon. Gentleman only proposed to carry out the same principle by the clauses he proposed. That was a feeble and isolated attempt; he proposed to make it strong and general. He (Mr. P. Wood) hoped that next year the Government would be prepared with a measure on the subject of church leases-and that, he ventured to think, would be a suitable opportunity for making some provisions for an increase in the episcopate.

to consider the position in which deans and chapters would be placed if some measure of the kind were not adopted. The hon. Member for Montrose had already thrown out an intimation upon the subject. The hon. Member thought that if they were reduced to having nothing to do, they SIR B. HALL regretted that the Go- might then be easily abolished. In other vernment had not accepted the clauses, words, his object was to extinguish all because the proposition as a whole was a deans and chapters. He (Mr. P. Wood) reasonable one, although he was not pre- did not impute to Her Majesty's Governpared to agree to the whole of it; it was ment any such wish; and therefore he one which would be for the advantage of should be glad to hear some encouragethe Church and the community to have ment from them of the view taken by the carried out. It was perfectly useless, how-right hon. Gentleman the Member for ever, for any individual Member to attempt South Wiltshire, which was to give them to bring forward any such proposition; but something to do. Originally they were the right hon. Gentleman had very properly collegiate bodies with high offices attached afforded an opportunity for the considera- to them, but by abuse they had dwindled tion of the subject. He entirely approved of the clause with regard to the residence of canons. Looking at the state of feeling and to the desire so generally expressed, that the ministers of the Church who received high stipends should render adequate service, the House ought to do all in its power towards making the Church useful to the community; and he supported the proposition of the right hon. Gentleman, because it would materially aid that object. He hoped, therefore, the right hon. Gentleman would take the sense of the House upon them. As to the lateness of the Session, it was entirely the fault of the Government that the Bill had not been long since before the House of Commons. It was read a second time in the House of Lords so far back as April. Whilst upon this subject, he wished to ask a question from the Government in relation to the report made by the Commissioners for the Division of Populous Parishes. He could not himself agree in the scheme that the Crown livings should be sold; but it was one which required the consideration of Government, and some information ought to be given to the House as to their intentions with regard to such parishes. He wished to know whether the Government intended, early in the ensuing Session, to propose any scheme for the division of populous parishes-whether a Bill had not been prepared at the commencement of the Session virtually for that object; and, if so, why it had not been laid on the table?

MR. W. P. WOOD entirely concurred

MR. HUME begged the supporters of the clauses to consider the risk they ran of throwing blame on the Church by this scheme. One of the greatest improvements had been the curtailing of useless sinecures; but, as the hon. Member for West Surrey said, it was the clergy themselves who had destroyed the Church. He hoped that those who wished for the re-establishment of collegiate bodies, would consider the grave circumstances of the times. When those establishments were originally formed, there was only one religion in the land; and all being of one opinion, there was no other course open than that which had been adopted. But now only half the people belonged to the Church; and if it was attempted to re-establish the cathedrals in their former grandeur, the fabric altogether would be endangered. The country would not bear it. Let the clergy

have duties to perform; but an end must | remaining two months he was allowed to be put to pluralities and sinecures, whilst be absent. In that way the spiritual cure incomes must be equalised before the peo- of the parish was attended to, while, at ple would be satisfied. the same time, the clergyman could perMR. HENLEY said, there was some in- form his duty for three months in the consistency between the clauses and the cathedral city. The right hon. Gentleman tenor of the speeches of the right hon. proposed, by one of the clauses, to do this Gentleman the Member for South Wilt--that where any clergyman had a living shire, and the hon. and learned Member at a considerable distance, and had besides for Oxford. In their speeches they wished a canonry in a cathedral, all his income, to restore the collegiate institutions, but but that of the canonry, should be divided the clauses split the canonries. One can- amongst clergymen holding benefices withonry was divided into two to assist in the in the cathedral city. He (Lord J. Ruscure of souls among the people of the town; sell) really did not see how that was likely another was joined to the chancellorship, to meet the necessities of the case. He which did not require the emoluments of owned, he thought, they must have one the canonry, being in many cases a sine- plan or another. They must either retain cure; a third was joined to the inspector- the plan they have now of giving a clergyship of schools; and a fourth to the train- man a cure of souls with a canonry, or they ing school. So that there was nothing of must make the chapters collegiate bodies the collegiate body left; the right hon. that would not have the cure of souls, but Gentleman would be doing under another other duties attached to them. It was name that which he did not intend to do. proposed that the canon should only hold a It was utterly inconsistent with the first benefice within the cathedral city, and that of his clauses to say that the canons should might answer very well in the city of reside eight months in the year, and then Westminster; but when they came to split them up in this manner. The fact make that general provision through the was the clauses should have been introduced country, it would not be equally applias a separate Bill. cable.

Here

LORD J. RUSSELL said, that the right MR. S. HERBERT replied. The nohon. Gentleman the Member for the Uni- ble Lord appeared to consider the present versity of Oxford had found great fault system to be near perfection; but what with the Bill of 1840, but he did not con- was the fact? The law now required the sider the main objects of the Ecclesiastical clergyman who held a canonry with his Commission when originally appointed. benefice to reside only seven months in The object of it was to provide spiritual his cure, so that five months in the year instruction in certain parts of the country, the duty was performed by a curate. The and to find the means by which that spiri- Amendment he proposed would remedy tual destitution might be remedied. It this. The hon. Member for Montrose was resolved to take those means out of said that he (Mr. S. Herbert) was going the funds of the collegiate establishments, to restore all the great cathedrals; but and by a considerable diminution of the his object was quite the reverse. canonries to provide the necessary funds. were men enjoying certain salaries; and He doubted whether the scheme of the what he insisted upon was that they should right hon. Gentleman the Member for do work for their pay. It was to restore South Wiltshire-if they were to go into the collegiate and capitular character to all its details-would answer the purpose these bodies that he had in view in subof effecting any improvements in the pre-mitting these clauses to the Committee. sent system. He thought that his propo- He proposed these clauses with the view sitions were open to the objections which of calling the attention of Parliament to had been made to them by the hon. Gen- the subject. He had communicated with tleman the Member for Oxfordshire, and members of almost every chapter in Enghe did not think the right hon. Gentleman land, and with many clergymen, and from adhered to the principle to which he had the sentiments they had expressed, he bepledged himself. According to the sys-lieved that Parliament must sooner or tem that had been adopted, a clergyman later adopt such a scheme as he now remight hold a living, on which he would re- commended. side seven months, and for three months reside in the cathedral town, and for the

The Committee divided:-Ayes 84; Noes 104: Majority 20.

LORD BEAUMONT considered the Bill so objectionable that it was not worth going into Committee upon, and he should therefore move that it be read a second time that day six months.

After a few words from Lord MONTEAGLE and Lord BROUGHAM,

On Question, that "now" stand part of the Motion; Resolved in the Negative. Bill to be read 2a this day six months.

of our home service should keep pace with | know that there was any difference bethat of our foreign affairs, he was dis- tween this Bill and the Bill of last Sesposed, if those retrenchments and econo- sion, except in its extension to Ireland. mies, so ill-judged and so misplaced, The object of the Bill was to permit tenshould be persevered in, to require that ants for life to bind their heirs and succesthey should begin at the top, and that no sors to allow compensation for improverank in the country should be exempted ments made by an occupying tenant. He from this spirit of retrenchment. With thought that the Bill did not contain suffithat view he should move that an humble cient checks and guards to justify the Address be presented to Her Majesty that passing of the Bill in its present shape, She would be graciously pleased to order but in Committee it might be so modified that there be laid before the House a most as to render it a useful measure. important piece of information, namely, the amount of all savings in the civil list revenue since the beginning of 1838, distinguishing the classes and the years. He knew that a bargain was supposed to be made with the Crown at the commencement of each reign, but that was always on the supposition that things generally were to remain in their present position; and if one branch of the civil list were reported against, why should not all parts of the civil list be looked into? If any person should have said, as was said to his late lamented Royal Highness the Duke of Cambridge, by whom it was received with the reprobation which the phantasy-the foreign phantasy-deserved, that the time had come for lowering the English aristocracy-if any one should have had the folly, the presumption so to speak, whoever they might be, must know now that Parliament was resolved not to lower the English aristocracy. And the English aristocracy would be lowered if such things were allowed to pass as he knew were now passing, namely, that a lady of the highest rank, connected with the families of dukes and marquesses by the nearest ties, was reduced to the humiliating neeessity of advertising for necessary employment.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE said, the office to which the noble Lord had referred had been filled up by placing in it a very zealous servant of the Crown.

The MARQUESS of WESTMINSTER said, the head clerk in the office of the Board of Green Cloth had been appointed to the situation lately filled by Sir T. Marrable, and he believed it was a very proper appointment.

LANDLORD AND TENANT BILL. LORD PORTMAN moved the Second Reading of this Bill, which had been brought to their Lordships' House from the House of Commons. He did not

LIVERPOOL CORPORATION WATER

WORKS BILL.

The

The EARL of EGLINTOUN called the attention of the House to the petition of the Committee of the Ratepayers of Liverpool appointed to conduct the opposition to the Liverpool Corporation Waterworks Bill, complaining of certain parties in respect to their conduct in procuring signatures to the petition against the said Bill, presented on the 17th of June last. facts had been inquired into by a committee, and it had been clearly ascertained that persons were employed, at the rate of 4s. 6d., to go about and collect signatures, that many of the signatures were fictitious, and that the persons who were so employed had confessed that they had themselves written many of the signatures, most of which were feigned names. The noble Earl concluded by moving that Joseph Byrne, Joseph Hinde, and Duncan M'Arthur do attend at the bar of the House on Friday next, in reference to their conduct with regard to the signatures to the petition of the ratepayers of Liverpool-presented to the House on the 17th June last-praying to be heard by counsel against the said Bill.

The MARQUESS of LANSDOWNE admitted that, as the case had been stated by the noble Earl, there had been a gross breach of privilege committed by these parties, and the House would be deserting the duties which it owed to itself if it did not thoroughly investigate the matter and