492

C

Lord Caftlereagh agreed with his right hon. Friend who fpoke laft, that in many points the army of referve had great. advantages over the militia, and principally as forming the nidus of a regular army: but as it was impoffible to procure from thofe two fources the force that was wanted, it became neceffary to recur to the third fpecies of force. He wished to correct a misconception which had gone abroad refpecting the fuspension of the army of referve act. It was not the intention of his hon. Friend near him, to entirely fufpend the operation of the act. He would not fufpend the recruiting, but he meant to fufpend the ballots, which created the competition, and the high bounties. To justify the prefent bill, the noble Lord ftated, that it was in Ireland alone that it was practicable to raise men at a bounty inferiorto the line or the army of referve. It arofe from that propenfity which the natives of that part of the empire poffeffed to follow the gentry of the country in preference to regular officers, however excellent. He did not concur in thofe differences which had been endeavoured to be fupported in refpect of the mode of raising men in both kingdoms; whether the bounty was direct as in Ireland, or indirect, as in this country, the operation, as far as regarded the financial part of the fyftem, was the fame in both countries. If he thought that the prefent measure could poffibly tend to impede the recruiting for the regular fervice, if it could even prevent the augmentation of that force by five thousand men, it would, in his mind, be an infuperable objection to it. But he did not think it would produce any difficulties in the way of the recruiting fervice for the line. He had infpected the returns of that fervice for a series of years, and he could perceive from them, that the army did not get fewer men, even when the competition was at the higheft. He did not think it advisable to forcgo the advantages of the prefent bill. A great mafs of the popalation of Ireland will enter into the militia, but not into the army, and to procure the men wanted the means of recruiting fhould be multiplied. As to the objections that' had been urged against the measure on the fcore of finance, and as to its being at the joint expence of the united kingdom, he did not think that would weigh much with Gentlemen, particularly if they reflected that this was the part of the empire moft menaced, and to which the immediate advantages of it would refult: he would therefore vote for the measure.

Mr. Bankes faid, that Minifters were introducing a fyftem,

which is more limited, and lefs efficient than the army of referve, in lieu of which, it was intended to be fubftituted s it was making the Irish militia in,general liable to the fervice of the two countries; becaufe a recruit will now fuppofe himself included, and eventually equally liable with others, and will, no doubt, require a larger bounty to induce him. to enter. The, deficiency occafioned by the power granted to his Majesty, ought to be fupplied by a force equally good in every respect. The noble Lord had faid, that it was an eafy manner of difciplining the men who were newly railed; but there were other regiments,, of a different defeription, in which they might as eafily attain that difcipline. We were providing for a cafe which was not exifting, as it must be acknowledged that we are in no greater danger of invafion than we had been during the winter time. He was decidedly against the bill, as it was encouraging a fpecies of force which was inferior to the other two-the army of referve and the regular army, which was an object quiter contrary to the intention of the Minifters themfelves, at a time they were expreffing a defire to increafe the regular army. It had been faid that the army of referve act was not to be fufpended entirely; he wished to know what was the intention of Government upon that point.

Lord Caftlereagh explained, and faid, it was intended to fufpend the operation of the army of referve act, in a certain degree, and to take from the counties which were deficient in their quotas, a moderate fine in lieu thereof; but not to fufpend the recruiting, even for that fervice, at a bounty inferior to that for the regiments of the line.

Mr. Windham did not think that the noble Lord, who' fpoke in answer to the right hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Pitt), had been fuccefsful in combating his arguments. He would venture to object to the former bill, although it had had the ratification of that Houfe; and he objected to the prefent one on account of its relation thereto.. It had been faid by thofe on the oppofite bench, that he, and others in that House, were always complaining of the conduct of Minifters, and, in fhort, that "though they piped to us, we would not dance; and though they mourned, we would not lament." (A laugh) He, however, would fill obferve, that he never went fo far as to fay, "difband the militia,' he only wished that no augmentation of that system thould. take place. Minifters did not call this a difpofable force,

but

but they faid that it gave them a greater command of their disposable force. That he denied; because the one was quite inconfiftent with the other. The recruiting for the one would undoubtedly interfere with the other. Every one of the Minifters on the oppofite bench feemed to be, as it were, his own antagonist. Every measure they adopted, they counteracted by the adoption of fome other measure. In fhort, they were in the fituation of a man who is haunted by his own spectre; the right hand was fighting with the left. Although they had already procured no less than 400,000 volunteers, 70,000 militia, and 36,000 men for the army of referve, they feemed ftill to be wishing to increase that defcription of force deftined for a limited fervice. Such measures were totally at variance with one another. Ele difapproved entirely of fuch a circuitous mode of attaining the object in view, as that of raifing men for the militia, as a step towards increafing the regular army. The militia were now raised by bounty, and not by ballot; and why not give the force to be raifed the appellation of fencibles? An ancient Grecian, faid he (alluding to Anacreon), i could never produce any thing from his harp but the strain of love, notwithstanding the great number of ftrings on his inftrument; fo, in his opinion, were the Minifters always harping on the fame ftring; they feemed to him to end always where they began. In the case of rebellion, it might be faid, that it was proper to bring away the Irish militia from their own country to prevent a degree of party fpirit, to prevent a regiment of Orangemen fighting against Catholics. No man would wish to augment the ferocity of such civil wars as had occurred in that country. Were any troops to be substituted for the militia, he should think that foreigners were as fit for the purpose as any other, to prevent Englishmen or Irishmen fighting against their own relations. Although, however, he might be induced to agree to the propriety of bringing Irishmen out of their own country on that account, yet by the measures adopted by the Ministers he found that other Irifhmen were to be raised in their place. He doubted not that fome gentlemen had been induced to vote for the bill which had lately paffed, upon the principle of the Irish militia being thus always kept up at the fame height. This put him in mind of a certain Gentleman, who always loved to intoxicate his guefts, and the method he adopted was, by keeping his punch-bowl conftantly fupplied by an apparatus under his table; fo that thofe whom he entertained

tertained were induced to drink too much, by their perceiving that the quantity of liquor never decreased. Unless the deficiency was to be fupplied by foreign or regular troops, he thought Ireland would be left in a defenceless state. He faw no profpect of that reciprocity which had been so often. alluded to. Such meafures made it more and more impoffible to procure that fpecies of force which was wanted. Minifters first tried their hand at one mode, and finding that not to fucceed altogether to the expectations of the country, they then try another, and finding that as bad, they then come to the militia fyftem again. In short, they feemed, notwithstanding their own inclinations, to be following means to procure any thing but a regular army. He had read of a lady who faid to her gallant, that he was the only man the ever knew who feemed determined not to be a gentleman. He might fay of the prefent Minifters, that they appeared to him to be the only Minifters he ever had heard of, who were determined never to have an army.

Mr. Secretary Yorke faid, that fo far from his Majesty's Minifters feeming to be determined not to have a regular army, as the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Windham) had expreffed himself in the conclufion of his fpeech, he fhould only mention, what had been often taken notice of lately in that House, that the army was greater at this moment than it ever was at an equal period in any former war. In point of fact, the regular army was never a popular measure in this country. The plan which had been always adopted was to reduce it at the end of every war. The force propofed to be raised by this bill was acknowledged, by thofe who had experience of Ireland, to be the best that could be adopted in the prefent fituation of the country, and would leaft of all interfere with the regular army. Ireland had, as yet, contributed lefs to the augmentation of the army than its proportion, when compared with Great Britain. Of 20,000 militia, 18,000 only were raised in that country at this moment: of 10,000 men for the army of referve, only 7,000 had been procured; Ireland had therefore a great number of men yet to furnish. There were a great many men of property who would come forth and endeavour to augment the militia at the bounty propofed, who would not enter into any other kind of fervice. He was convinced, that by the influence of fuch leading Gentlemen in Ireland, the force propofed by the bill could be foon raised without at all interfering with the recuiting of our regular army.

Mr.

Mr. Fox faid, he had formerly given his opinion of the general plan of defence which had been adopted, and he had liftened with attention to all that had been advanced by others upon the fubject. If 10,000 men were actually propofed to be raifed for a limited fervice, he would afk, why thould it be for the utmost poffible limited fervice? We were placing ourselves in a very whimfical fituation. Of 20,000 inilitia in Ireland, we were to bring ro,000 to this country, while, as to the other 10,000, we were making no provision or engagement at all. He wanted to know on what principle it was not alfo propofed to enter into a fimilar engage ment with the new levies? It had been answered that they could not be raised fo cheaply; then why not raife them as fencibles? The mode of railing this propofed augmentation was by making an addition of 30 men to each company. What was to become of the regiments which might chance to be in this country? Were their companies of feventy men to be increased to one hundred? and were the thirty ada ditional men to be left in Ireland, or to join the others in England? They muft, undoubtedly, be raifed on fome spe cific agreement, in order to procure their voluntary acquiefcence. While it was faid, that fencibles could not be procured to come to this country at a bounty of four guineas, how were we to get the militia to extend their fervices at that rate? Notwithstanding all the boat of voluntary fervices, Minifters feemed afraid to broach the fubject to the new levies, and appeared inclined to truft, that when men had been induced to enlift into a regiment which had extended its fervice, they alfo would not refufe an equal extenfion. The foundation of the plan feemed to be the propofed fufpenfion of the army of referve act; and while Ministers thus took one fyftem out of the market, so as not to interfere with the regular army, they immediately add 10,000 men by a mode which will interfere, more or lefs, with that very fervice, by preventing its rapid increase.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer obferved, that the privates would molt probably be difpofed to join their comrades, and then the force would fo far be augmented. It had been afked why fencibles were not raised instead of militia; but it fhould be recollected, that during the laft war the fencibles were not raised for general frvice to all parts of the kingdom. The mode of railing the militia had a peculiar facility growing out of the natural influence poffeffed by gentlemen in their own vicinity, which was far greater than any other

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