Mr. Secretary Yorke moved the order of the day, for going into a Committee on the

VOLUNTEER REGULATIONS BILL.

The Houfe having refolved itfelf into a Committee, Mr. Yorke proceeded to propofe fome new claufes. The firft was, to invalidate any agreements that might have been entered into between matters and fervants, by which the latter were prevented from entering into volunteer corps. The next was a claufe to repeal a claufe in a former bill, compelling the parith to pay the drill ferjeants: they are in future to be paid out of the public purte. Thefe claufes were agreed to. The next was a claufe authorizing the commander of a corps, in cafe of any member misbehaving himself, to deprive him of that day's pay, or elfe to difallow that day as one of his days of exercite.

Mr. Pitt faid, the claufe now propofed would have fome effect, but ftill he did not think it would be fufficient. He had prepared fome claufes upon this fubject, which would go a little further. One of them was to give the commander of a corps a power to order any member mifbehaving himfelf while under arms, into cuftody during the time the corps remained under arms; to inflict fines as high as five fhillings, in cafes of non-attendance, not taking care of their arms, &c. He did not think that this would give any offence to the volunteer corps, becaufe it certainly was not an unneceffary feverity. He meant this to be a ge neral claufe applicable to all corps. If any perfons fhould feel themfelves diffatisfied with thefe regulations, which he did not think probable, ftill they had the power to refign. But he entertained no apprehenfions upon the fubject, and he fhould certainly take an opportunity of propofing them in fome ftage of the bill.

Mr. Tierney very much approved of the regulations fuggefted by the right hon. Gentleman, but he was apprehenLive that fome corps in town would feel a degree of jealoufy upon the fubje&t. They were in many refpects different from moft of the corps in the country; they received no pay, and many of the members who kept fhops, who perhaps had only one apprentice, or perhaps none, would feet themselves much hurt at being fined fo heavily, when they really could not leave their bufinets without the greateft inconvenience. But as to the power of ordering a member under an arreft for misconduct while under arms, he thought there could be no objection to it.

Mr.

Mr. Pitt faid, that thefe regulations might be applied only to the corps who received pay.

Colonel Eyre thought there was no occafion for any further regulations, and therefore fhould object to these claufes. The Marquis of Titchfield approved entirely of the ideas of Mr. Pitt upon this fubject, and thought they were highly advantageous to the volunteer fyftem. If he might prefume to offer any thing in addition to that which came from fo high an authority, it would be, that the point of difcipline to which the claufe referred, thould be judged of by a military council in the way of a court martial, fubject to the approbation of the commander of each corps.

Mr. Secretary Yorke thought both the claufe which he had propofed, and thofe propofed by the right hon. Gentleman, might be adopted, for they were not in the leaft inconfiftent with each other. He approved of the system of imprisoning volunteers among themfelves for the day, when they were under arms, if they had mifconducted themfelves in the ranks; and he thought the ideas submitted to the Committee by the right hon. Gentleman very good. He diffented from the mode in which Mr. Pitt's claufe propofed to levy the fines, but thought they should be fubmitted to a court martial, as had been hinted by a noble Marquis: he thought alfo, that all thefe proceedings for fines and penalties fhould be fubject to the approbation of the commander of each corps, &c.

Mr. Lafcelles thought that, generally speaking, it was impolitic to impofe on volunteer corps any other fines than thofe which originated with themselves.

Mr. Pitt faid, that he had not fo diftin&tly, perhaps, as he might have done, stated what he meant by misconduct of a volunteer under arms: he did not mean general mifconduct, for which the commander had already power to punish him in fome degree, by expreffing difpicalure, &c. He did not mean to give a general latitude to the commander to punish in the fpecific manner he propofed for general mifconduct, but he meant to apply the punishment he propofed. If any volunteer under arms fhould particularly mifbehave, thould neglect his arms and accoutrements, or clothing, in any remarkable manner, or should behave himLelf indecently, or act contrary to most of the rules and regulations of the corps, then fome punishment fhould follow, and that punishment fhould be fpecific, in order that therefhould be no doubt what the refult must be of fuch mifconduct. Perhaps the better way would be to take the claufe

of the right hon. Gentleman first, and then his (Mr. Pitt's) claufes might be brought up and read, fo that the Committee might the better understand the meaning of them; which courfe was adopted. He propofed that perfons mifbehaving in the way he ftated, fhould be imprifoned in their own corps for the day they were out, &c. That in fome inftances the fine fhould be as high as five thillings; in others, not higher than one fhilling, to be regulated by the fact whether the party incurring the forfeit contributed to the poor's rate or not. Mr. Pitt profeffed himself very happy to hear the fentiments of the noble Lord on the other fide of the Houfe (the Marquis of Titchfield) on all occafions, and particularly on the prefent occafion. He did not entertain any doubt of the propriety of the court martial fuggefted by that noble Lord, provided the fentence of the court martial was made fubject to the approbation of the commander, but he owned he thought the fummary power of the other punishment might be more effectual than the fines themselves.

After fome further converfation the claufe of the Secretary of State was received and agreed to, as were all his other claufes.

Mr. Pitt then propofed his claufes; which he faid, he submitted to the Committee without faying any thing in their behalf at present.

The first claufe refpe&ting the fines being read,

The Attorney General thought, as a permanent fyftem, the claufe a very wife one, but doubted whether it was advifable to adopt it at the prefent moment. He was afraid it might be, under all the circumftances, endeavouring to do too much; it was better, perhaps, to do a little lefs, although the fyftem was defective, than by endeavouring to make it perfect, poffibly in fome meafure to overturn it. He was afraid of proceeding too far upon the compulfory fyftem with volunteers: that might be referved in cafe his Majefty fhould call forth his fubje&s under the compulsory

enrollment.

Mr. Pitt fuggefted that the objections which feemed to be entertained against too much of the compulfory fyftem being applied to volunteers might probably be done away, by making a diftinction between thofe receiving pay and those who did not. He thought the fyflem he propofed would, upon a moderate computation, improve the military difcipline of 150,000 men in a very fhort time; an object well worth attending to at this important crifis: and this he

meant

meant as applicable to those who might not come forward, under an invitation, to put themfelves on permanent duty, which, after all, was the very best way to make them good foldiers. This was a matter not to be neglected, for we might look for the event in which we should have to 1efift the enemy in the courfe of a few weeks at fartheft: now he could have no hesitation in faying that might be done effectually by the volunteers, difcreetly mixt with the forces of the line; and to do fo effectually, care should be taken of the improvement of the volunteers in their difcipline. He felt this fo forcibly, that he muft prefs it upon the House.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer agreed with the Attorney General upon this fubject, that it was dangerous to try to accomplish too much in the fyftem of military execife of the volunteers; and he thought the volunteers had already made great progress in that matter. It was fuppofed that twentyfive days would be fufficient to inftruct them tolerably; now there were hardly any of them who had not been inftructed for forty, and fome of them for more than fixty days. He was perfuaded that Parliament had done wifely in giving the volunteers an opportunity of acting as they have, and he could not help thinking that the degree of difcipline they had acquired already, would afford us all a degree of confidence, not only in their further improvement, but also warrant our reliance on their fufficiency to meet any veterans of the enemy. He conceived, that at this moment the volunteers had attained fuch a degree of discipline as no one at the time of their firft eftablishment had any idea of, nor even at the time when the firft volunteer bill was introduced; and he owned that he contemplated with aftonishment, as well as fatisfaction, the degree of perfection at which the volunteer fyf tem was now arrived; and this juftified the hope that a very large portion of the volunteers of England, mixed with the regular troops, were fit to meet the veteran troops of France, and that our meeting of them fo would give us nothing thort of hope and full confidence of immediate fuccefs. But he did entertain ftrong doubts of the propriety of this claufe, on the ground which had been ftated by his learned Friend, the Attorney General. He obferved, that in the last war, the volunteers were only 150,000, and yet they answered the purpofe for which they were intended; no one complained of their inefficiency in the courfe of the laft war. They achieved a great object in the courfe of their fervices in Ireland, although they were neither half fo numerous, nor under any

fuch

fuch regulations as they are at prefent. His main object was, that the regulations of the volunteers fhould be left as much as poffible to the volunteers themselves; that Parliament fhould interfere as little as poffible with the internal regula tions and management of volunteer corps, and particularly in the fyftem of inflicting penalties. He had no doubt of the efficacy of the fyftem recommended by the right hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) as a permanent fyftem; but the doubt was, whether there was not fome rifk in adopting it at the present

moment.

Mr. Pitt faid, he certainly was willing to hope with the right hon, Gentleman, and to believe, and even to be confident, that there was indeed a very confiderable portion of the volunteers of Great Britain, who, in concert with the regular force, would be of great utility in the conteft which we are now to expect; but he could not difguife from the Houfe, because he could not disguise from bimself, that very many of the volunteers were in no degree advanced to that ftate of discipline in which we fhould with to fee them, and which it was indifpenfably neceffary they fhould be in before they could be effentially ferviceable to their country, when called out for its defence, and in fupport of its exiftence. There was an error in the judgment of many Gentlemen who had spoken upon the fubject of the military difcipline of the volunteers: too many judged of the volunteers of England from the brilliant corps of the metropolis; whereas it was notorious that many corps in the country were in nothing like the fame ftate; many of them had but just received their arms, which, under the many difficulties with which we had to encounter, was not to be wondered at. But from what he himself knew, and from the credible information he received from others, from the various fluctuations and uncertainty that were incident to the fyftem, there were many of them in a state which was far from approaching the fituation defcribed by the right. hon. Gentleman. He did not fay that many of the volunteers, who may in the courfe perhaps of three weeks be put to the proof, and may have to meet with the veteran troops of France, would not acquit themselves with honour in union with troops of the line, nor that ultimately they would not be fuccefsful in the conteft for the defence of the country: that was not the queftion now to be difcuffed; the question now was this, What was the moft fpeedy mode of making the volunteers efficient for the purpofes of action with as little lofs of blood as poflible? for that was to us the most interefting part of the fubject, and with the care of which that Houle

was