a common religion. Certainly, Sir, it was | cally pressed upon me, and by whose asvery probable that, under such circum- sistance I was enabled to give effect to it, stances, the Catholic peasant of Ireland was the Catholic priest. That minister might become a dangerous instrument in who, by some, is represented as perpe the hands of a designing leader. But tually engaged in mischievous intrigue, this was the case, not because he was Ca- but whom, as far as my experience has tholic, but because he was neglected and gone, I have invariably found most sinignorant:-I trust and believe, Sir, that a cerely anxious for, and actively co opebetter order of things is now opening to rating in, any plan for the improvement our view. Every year shews an increas- of the people and the advantage of his ing degree of intelligence among that country. most important part of the community. Looking at the subject in this point of view, I confess it appears to me that much consolation is to be derived from some of the reports now upon the table of this House. I allude, Sir, to the reports made by the commissioners for enquiring into the state of public education in Ireland. These reports, Sir, whilst they exhibit a lamentable want of those facilities, which ought to have been afforded to the further ance of such an object, present, at the same time, a most gratifying picture of the eager desire, which is manifested by the great mass of the population of Ireland, Catholic as well as Protestant, to procure, for their children, the advantages of education. These reports, Sir, relate to various parts of Ireland. They have perhaps made a particular impression upon my mind, because it happens to me to be able to add my testimony to the same effect with respect to another part of that island. I cannot easily forget, Sir, the moment when, upon one of the wildest tracts of the south western part of the county of Limerick, I was myself surrounded by an immense multitude, composed altogether of individuals professing the Catholic faith, clamouring round me, and urging me to procure for them, from their landlord, as the greatest boon which it was in his power to bestow, the means of giving to their children some advantages of education. Of education, Sir, not ia the peculiar tenets and doctrines of that religion against which it is objected that it seeks always to keep its votaries in darkness and ignorance; but their wish was for such a degree of instruction as should enable them to read, with their own eyes, and judge with their own understanding, of those truths, upon which all religion must depend. It is not unimportant, Sir, to consider, by whom the application, to which I have alluded, was supported. The person, Sir, by whom this wish of the people was most earnestly and emphati Sir, I may perhaps look at this part of the subject with too sanguine an eye; but I do confess that, to my mind, this readiness, or rather I should say, this eagerness and anxiety of the Catholic population of Ireland to give to the rising generation the advantages of education, does afford a prospect of more efficient and permanent security for the Protestant establishment in church and state, than the most sanguine legislator could hope to provide by any code of restrictive regulations. Sir, it must not be supposed, because I have confined myself to that which may perhaps in argument be termed a narrow view of the question, that I do not feel the importance of the many topics which, in a more general view of the subject, have been introduced into this discussion. Out of respect to the House, I have purposely confined myself to that view of the subject to which my attention has been particu larly drawn; but which I consider only as one, among many views which lead to the same conclusion. Suffice it to say that, in every sentiment expressed in the speech of the right hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) I most sincerely concur, although I will not run the risk of weakening his arguments by repeating them. Thinking therefore, Sir, after the most attentive consideration of all which has been argued upon this subject, that very much may be safely done for the Catholics, and being confirmed in that opinion, by all the observation which I have been enabled to make upon the situation, the character, and the conduct of those, upon whose character and conduct the safety or danger of the measure must depend, I shall give my vote for the mo tion of the right hon. gentleman, with a perfect conviction, that, in so doing, I best consult the welfare of my country, and the well understood interests of the Protestant church. On the motion of lord Castlereagh, the House, at half past two o'clock in the morning, adjourned. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, February 26. PETITIONS RESPECTING THE CLAIMS OF THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.] Petitions against the Catholic Claims were presented by lord St. Helen's from Stamford, by the bishop of Chester, from the inhabitants of Worley, in Lancashire, and from the Protestants of the county of Cavan. Marquis Wellesley presented a petition from certain inhabitants of Chichester and its neighbourhood, in favour of the Catholic claims. His lordship stated, that when notice was issued that this petition was lying for signatures, a hand-bill was circulated, part of which he read, warning persons against signing it; and for the purpose, as alleged, of stating the real opinions of the Catholics, quoting passages from a publication entitled "The Third Part of the Statement of Penal Laws," which it was asserted, had been published by the authority of the Catholic Board. This pretended Third Part of the Statement of Penal Laws, it was notorious in Ireland, was a fabrication, and it was there considered as a joke. It had, however, been observed, that what was considered a joke in Ireland, was sometimes looked upon in a very serious light in this country; and so it was with this fabrication, which had been industriously circulated, as the real opinions of the Catholics, in Sussex, in many parts of Yorkshire and Lancashire, and in other quarters. It had deterred many persons at Chichester from signing the petition he was then presenting, and was calculated to produce the worst effect, in exciting violence, by the grossest and most mischievous misrepresentation. He therefore trusted, that great caution would be used, in guarding against violence on either side, in order that a calm and dispassionate discussion might be had upon this momentous and vitally important question. HOUSE OF COMMONS. Friday, February 26. DISTTURBANCE IN THE GALLERY.] Soon after the Speaker took the Chair, a great pressure took place at the doors of the Strangers' Gallery, by persons endeavouring to force their way in, although at the time the gallery was filled to an excess, two or three persons were forcing their way into seats, vi et armis, and a great resistance and noise ensued, upon which the Speaker directed the Serjeant at Arms immediately to take the rioters into custody; and an hon. member pointing to a person standing about the centre of the gallery, said he had observed that person most active in making the disturbance and forcing his way. Another hon. member (Mr. Robert Thornton) said, the person alluded to, as he observed, was making his way out, but that he perceived another person (pointing him out) strike that person with great violence. The Speaker observed, that the House would not descend to discriminate individuals, but, if the disturbance continued, he hoped some hon. member would not hesitate to assert the dignity of the House by moving the Standing Order, that the gallery should be cleared of strangers, and then directed the Serjeant at Arms to take the rioter into custody and bring him before the House. The disturbance immediately ceased, and order was restored. PEMBROKESHIRE ELECTION MOTION RESPECTING EXCHANGING LISTS.] Mr. Barhum moved, That the Resolution of the House, of the 30th day of November last, "That in all cases of controverted elections for counties in England and Wales, the petitioners do by themselves or by their agents, within a convenient time to be appointed by the House, deliver to the sitting members or their agents, lists of the persons intended by the petitioners to be objected to, who voted for the sitting members; giving in the said lists, the several heads of objection, and distinguishing the same against the names of the voters excepted to; and that the sitting members do by themselves or by their agents, within the same time, deliver the like lists on their part to the petitioners or their agents," might be read; and the same being read: the hon. gentleman next moved, "That the hon. John Frederick Campbell, and the several freeholders, who have petitioned this House, complaining of the undue election and return of sir John Owen, bart. for the county of Pembroke, do, on or before Monday next, deliver to the said sir John Owen, or his agent or agents, lists of the persons intended by the petitioners to be objected to who voted for the said sir John Owen, giving in the said lists the several heads of objection, and distinguishing the same against the names of the voters excepted to; and that the said sir John Owen do, by himself or his agents, within the same time, deliver the like lists on his part to the said several petitioners, or to their agent or agents." Sir J. Owen objected in strong terms, to the hardships that would be imposed upon him, were the House to grant the motion. The standing order required that an application of this sort should be made by the petitioner within a convenient time. Now the motion was six weeks after the petition against his return was presented, and only three days before the time fixed for trying the election. It would be impossible for him to send down 200 miles into Pembrokeshire, to procure such lists in time to be presented before the Committee. Mr. Barham contended, that it was not the fault of the petitioner, that delay had taken place and, therefore he should not be precluded of availing himself from those standing regulations of the House, which were necessary to enable him to support his petition. He had no intention whatever of taking the hon. baronet by surprise; and, as a proof of it, his hon. friend the petitioner, would have no objection to postpone the consideration of the petition, that more time might be given for the mutual exchange of the lists in question. Sir J. Owen replied, that farther delay must necessarily be injurious to himself. The time for trying the petition had been fixed by the House, and of course, he had made all his arrangements to meet it. cided, that the interval between the 16th and 22d was not that convenient time for preparing the lists which the regulation contemplated. On this ground they refused the application. Lord Castlereagh said, the complainant knowing the nature of the complaint which he proposed to bring, had the advantage in the readiness of making out his list over the person to whom he was opposing himself, therefore he conceived that reasonable time should be given to make out the lists of voters, especially those who lived so very remote as Pembrokeshire. Three days notice was a period infinitely too short to procure the necessary information, and the motion was, therefore, improper. Sir J. Newport contended that in the case of Irish contested elections, there was often a mutual exchange of lists, even after the Committee was struck. Mr. Lushington thought that anomaly easily accounted for, because the disputed votes were investigated by a commission, sent over to Ireland for the express purpose. Lord Kensington urged, that justice would not be done, unless this exchange of lists took place. In the course of the election there had been a description of votes exhibited, than which nothing could be worse. The Speaker said, he must here beg to interrupt the noble lord, who must of course be aware, that such remarks ought to be abstained from, as tending to prejudice the minds of gentlemen, who might eventually sit in the Committee, on these very votes. After some further discussion, a division took place, and Mr. Barham's motion was negatived by 117 against 79. Mr. Wynn was of opinion that it would be highly improper to depart from the explicit resolution of an act of parliament. The Speaker observed, that it might perhaps be proper to put the House in possession of a decision of the last parliament, which seemed to bear strongly on the present question. It was a regulation of the House, that the sitting member and the petitioner should deliver in mutual lists of contested votes, within a convenient time previous to trying the petition: and of that convenient time the House were to be judges. In the case of the Sussex election petition, decided in the last parliament, he recollected that the sitting member abandoned the defence of his seat, which was taken up by the freeholders in his interest. The trying of the petition was to take place on the 22nd of March, and on the 16th March an ap-liams, were not duly elected for the said plication was made by the petitioner, for borough; and that the last election for an exchange of lists: but the House de- the said borough, so far as relates to the WEYMOUTH AND MELCOMBE REGIS ELECTION.] Mr. Alderman Atkins, from the Select Committee appointed to try and determine the merits of the Petition complaining of an undue election and return for the town and borough of Weymouth and Melcombe Regis, informed the House that the Committee have determined, 1. "That sir John Murray, bart. was duly elected, and, that the right hon. Thomas Wallace, John Broadhurst, esq. Henry Trail, esq. Richard Augustus Tucker Steward, esq. and William Wil election of the said right hon. Thomas Wallace, John Broadhurst, and Henry Trail, esquires, is void." Mr. Alderman Atkins also acquainted the House, that the said Select Committee had come to the following Resolutions: 1. "That it appears to this Committee, that at the last election for the town and borough of Weymouth and Melcombe Regis, the right hon. Thomas Wallace, John Broadhurst and Henry Trail, esqrs. did by treating act in violation of the statute of the 7th of William 3, cap. 4, whereby they are incapacitated to serve in parliament upon such election. 2. "That the right of voting in the said town and borough appears to be, among others, in persons seised of freeholds within the said borough; that gross abuses have of late been practised within the said borough by persons claiming and exercising a right to vote upon nominal reserved rents, arising out of freeholds split and divided into the most minute fractional parts, under wills either real or fictitious; and that it further appears to the Committee, that such evils can only be effectually remedied by the interposition of the legislature." Mr. Alderman Atkins then moved that the whole of the Minutes of the Evidence be laid before the House. state, that the practice of splitting votes had been carried to such a preposterous extent, that a fractional part so extremely low as the 1400th part of a 68th of a 5th of a two-and-sixpenny rate was deemed sufficient to entitle to a vote. Mr. Wynn contended, that as the committee was now no more, the attendance of any of its members for the selection of the evidence was quite optional. In fairness the whole of the evidence should be laid before the House. Mr. Rose and Mr. Bathurst spoke against the delay, which would ensue from copying and producing a great deal of irrelevant evidence. Mr. A. Baring considered it as a suspicious circumstance, that so much anxiety should be shewn that part of the evidence might not be produced. It would be a most irregular proceeding to permit the minutes of evidence to be garbled by a clerk; and even when the selection was made, it would give rise to a second discussion, whether the evidence had been garbled or not. Mr. Robinson observed, that it was the suggestion of the hon. chairman of the committee, that only part of the evidence should be produced. Indeed, if the whole of the minutes were laid on the table, the House would be trying anew the case as to the sitting members, which had already been decided by the committee. This would be a complete subversion of the Grenville Act. The Speaker begged to suggest, that for the sake of convenience and dispatch, only such part of the minutes as referred to this particular topic, should be selected from the mass of evidence; and that the selec- Mr. Holme Sumner conceived it would tion might be made by the clerk of the be extremely improper, to leave the busicommittee, under the direction of the ness of selection to the clerk of the comChairman, and any others of its late mem-mittee. He should propose, therefore, bers. If any new regulation were adopt- that the committee be re-appointed, for ed by the House, with regard to the elec- the purpose of examining and deciding tive franchise of the borough, it would be upon such parts of the evidence as they better it should take place before a new might think relevant to the matter on writ was issued. which they recommended the legislative The motion was then modified accord-interference of the House. ing to the Speaker's suggestion, as follows: "That so much of the Minutes of the Evidence taken before the said committee, as relates to the second of the said Resolutions, be laid before this House.' Mr. Ponsonby expressed his conviction, that the preferable way would be to adjourn the discussion till Monday, as some gentlemen might probably think it necessary that the whole of the evidence should be produced. Mr. Alderman Atkins thought there was part of the evidence which there was no occasion to produce. He begged also to Mr. Cochrane Johnstone asked, whether the minutes had not been copied out fair, and signed by the Chairman; and said it was most important that the whole of the minutes should be laid on the table, as he understood that very improper interference had been exercised by an illustrious personage. Mr. Croker said, when the hon. member should produce to the House any grounds for his assertion, it might be the subject of a legislative enactment; but the charge upon a member of the Upper House, for improper interference in the election of members of that House, shewed the danger of mixing the different motions. Mr. Wrottesley said, that the backwardness of gentlemen on the opposite side, to allow the production of the whole minutes, proved there was something that the House ought to be put in possession of: that the interference was probably so connected with the question, presented to their consideration, as not to be separated. After a long conversation, The Speaker suggested, that whatever the House might do, they must have the papers on the table of the House. If the whole were to be inspected, the whole must be on the table; if a part were only to be inspected, that part must be on the table. The Solicitor General (Sir W. Garrow), said, that the postponement of the discus[sion would be a matter of accommodation on both sides, as the Army Estimates and other orders would be before the House, which were likely to occupy their attention for a considerable time. Mr. Whitbread remarked, that the hon. and learned gentleman had taken up this matter in much too grave a manner. It was well known that his Majesty's ministers were engaged to a dinner on Monday, and that being the fact, it was a proceeding of no novelty that the House should feel disposed to wave any claims on their attention, on such an occasion. The Solicitor General was prepared to admit that the courtesy intended was a course of no novelty; but when it went forth to the public, that his Majesty's ministers were neglecting their public duties to attend a turtle feast, he apprehended it became expedient that the circumstances should be put on a right footing. After some further conversation, The Speaker suggested there were two modes of meeting the apparent wishes of the House, to enable the committee to support their Report by evidence: either to get the entire of the minutes, and to deliver them immediately to the com- Mr. Whitbread said; that the hon. and mittee, to enable them to amend their re-learned gentleman had made this a magport, or to refer the Report back to the nificent trifle, and begged leave to concommittee, which should be constituted a gratulate his Majesty's ministers on having committee for that purpose, with the ordi- obtained so able an advocate. nary powers of sending for persons, papers, and records. After some farther discussion it was ordered, on a division, that the Report be referred back to the Committee, with powers to send for persons, papers, and records. Mr. Bathurst declared that his Majesty's ministers were engaged to dine with the Russia Company on Monday; but as far as he was concerned, he begged to state, that he had made no engagement of the sort. And he felt it his duty to decline the invitation upon the sole ground of buTHE PRINCESS OF WALES.] Mr. Coch-siness in that House requiring his attenrane Johnstone said, that understanding his Majesty's ministers were invited to participate in a turtle feast on Monday, as he was by no means desirous of disturbing their harmony, he begged leave to postpone his motion, which stood for that day, to Thursday. Lord Castlereagh observed, that nothing of the description to which the hon. gentleman had alluded could operate as an inducement with his Majesty's ministers to neglect their duty; and if the hon. gentleman was desirous of bringing forward his motion on Monday, they were most ready to meet him. The hon. gentleman was best able to appreciate the importance of the subject, and would act as his own judgment dictated. Mr. Cochrane Johnstone had no objection to bring forward the motion on Monday, but from feelings of courtesy, he was desirous of yielding to the accommodation of the noble lord and his friends. tion. Mr. Cochrane Johnstone finally postponed his motion to Thursday. GREAT GRIMSBY ELECTION.] The Report of the Committee appointed to inquire into the merits of the Petition of the witnesses, complaining of the hardships they had sustained, in consequence of having been brought up to town, in pursuance of the order of the House, to give evidence upon the Great Grimsby Election, and having been left destitute of the means of returning to their homes, was brought up by Mr. Wynn. In substance it stated, that the committee had made the necessary inquiries, and found the allegations of the petitioners to be perfectly correct; but that after due consideration it appeared to the committee, that no public relief could be given to the petitioners, and that no alternative re. mained but for them to be passed to their |
