purpose of enabling them to discharge the said bills of exchange, to the amount of 2,202,000l. drawn in liquidation of the Indian debt, to provide for their other current payments, and to enable the petitioners, as circumstances may render it advisable, to reduce the amount of their bond debt, without increasing their capital stock; and that, on account of the intricacy of the matters necessary to be considered, and the want of advices from India relative to pecuniary concerns of the petitioners, they were unable to make out the estimates of the sum due by the public to the petitioners, or of the sum which it is requisite for them to be enabled to raise, until the time limited for presenting petitions for private bills was expired; and the petitioners therefore most humbly pray that leave may be given to present a Petition, praying that the House will be pleased to direct the payment of the said sum of 2,294,4261. so due by the public to the petitioners, as herein-before is mentioned, and to grant to the petitioners such relief, in the premises, as to the House shall seem meet." Mr. R. Gordon, on the order of the day being moved for the farther consideration of the Report of this Bill, observed, that the Bill had now received the finishing hand of the noble lord; but he could not see that any improvement, or any material alteration, had been made. He had observed that the noble lord had taken great pains in the construction of the Bill to avoid the words Assistant Judge, though this, in fact, was the very thing intended. One of the Amendments, he observed, was resorting to the suitors' fund for the payment of half of the new salary. Now, were there no other objection to the Bill, he should consider this alone as a very material one. The suitors' fund was private property, and, as such, what right, he asked, had they so to dispose of it? He knew that various sums had been taken from it before, but that was no justification of the practice. They were not to follow a multitude to do evil. By the Chan. cellor's paying the one half of the salary, the principle had been given up that he ought to pay the whole. He therefore contended for this principle to its full ex Ordered to be referred to a Committee. tent. The hon. member then adverted WAR WITH AMERICA.] Mr. Croker rose to correct a mistake, into which he had fallen in the course of the debate on Thursday night. He was perfectly right in all the facts he had stated, relative to the conduct of the American consular agent who issued certificates; but Mr. Lyman was not the person (as he had then asserted) who was guilty of the practice to which he referred. The name, however, was very similar, but he should decline mentioning it. In speaking also of the naval officer who had contributed by his skill and gallantry, to the preservation of our homeward-bound West India fleet, he should have stated, that it was captain Broke, of the Shannon frigate. Mr. Whitbread felt himself extremely happy at the self correction of the hon. gentleman, and he was sure that it would prove a great source of satisfaction to the friends of the late general Lyman, than whom a more correct or honourable man did not exist. Mr. Croker entirely participated in the satisfaction expressed by the hon. gent, VICE-CHANCELLOR'S BILL.] Lord Castlereagh moved the order of the day, for taking into farther consideration the report on the Vice-Chancellor's Bill. to the last clause of the amended Bill, providing for the Lord Chancellor's taking all the fees. On the subject of fees he had his doubts respecting their propriety, and was glad to understand that it was the intention of an hon. member to move, that the Lord Chancellor should receive no fees, but have a fixed salary. On the whole, it was his opinion that the Bill ought to be recommitted. Mr. M. A. Taylor felt it his duty, as chairman of the committee that had been appointed to enquire into the emoluments of the office of Lord Chancellor, to state that these emoluments had been much exaggerated by general and vulgar report. Upon an average, for some years past, they had not been more than 18, 19, or 20,000l. a year, instead of 30 or 40,000%. as had been represented. The fees, on account of bankruptcies, amount to about 5,000l.; the emoluments, as Speaker of the House of Lords, to 7,000l. making in all, with the salary paid from the Exchequer, about 20,000l. a year. The emoluments from bankruptcies alone had, on the contrary, been stated to amount to 17,000l. a year, but such reports were without foundation. It had been the wish of the committee, that a fixed salary should be given to the Lord Chancellor, instead of these casual fees, and in justice to the no as In the statute by which the commissioners of accounts were appointed they were excluded from sitting in that House by a special clause, and as the intention of the legislature was at present undoubted, he supposed there could be no objection, in order to obviate future doubts, to insert the clause he proposed. [682 ble and learned lord now in that state, The statute of Anne, and that of George 2, office, he thought it necessary to state, might be supposed at first sight to suffice. that, on this being communicated to him, But in this last statute it was specified, he approved of such an arrangement, and that the disability should not be extended acquiesced in the average of the last five to offices held for life or during good beyears being taken the standard,haviour. amounting to about 16 or 17,000l. a year, He thought it only doing fair justice to the noble lord to state, that on this occasion they found him as liberal as any principle of fairness or equity could require. He was still partial to the project he had formerly suggested, of separating the bankrupt causes from the jurisdiction of the Lord Chancellor. There could be nothing unconstitutional in such a measure, as these had been attached to the office by statute, and not originally connected with the Lord Chancellor's duties. Another judge might be appointed for bankruptcies, who, at the same time, might be of great assistance to the Cockpit. He admitted of the impossibility of the Master of the Rolls being called on to do other duties than those of his own office, and with regard to the Lord Chief Baron of the Exchequer, he had business enough already in his own court. Sir F. Flood was glad to find that the country, already so much burdened, was not to be charged with an additional salary. The Chancellor, it seemed, was to pay the one half of the salary, which was a proof that he was satisfied that he could not do all the duties. The Bill, in its first stage, he thought rather a slovenly performance, and unlike the usual productions of the noble lord. He approved of the amendments that had been introduced, and therefore, although he had formerly voted against the Bill, was now ready to give it his assent and support. It was evident there was a great increase of business in the Court of Chancery, and neither the Lord Chancellor nor the Master of the Rolls would be expected to do miracles. An immediate remedy was necessary, and any delay would be doing injustice to the public. Sir C. Burrell remarked, that the precedency of the Vice-Chancellor was not proportioned to his salary, as it was proposed that he should tank after the Master of the Rolls, though his salary was superior to that of this last officer. Mr. Abercromby suggested that, as it was not intended that the Vice-Chancellor should have a seat in the House of Commons, the safest course to pursue, would be to insert a clause in the Bill to that purpose. Mr. Rose said, that there could be no objection to what the hon. and learned member proposed, had not the act of Anne been amply sufficient. The words were, that no one holding any newly created office of emolument, should be held qualified to sit in the House of Com mons. Mr. Canning professed not to have discovered any of those amendments in the Bill that would induce him now to vote for it, having voted against it on the second reading. It appeared to him to have come out of the Committee with all the objections that it had at first presented; but he should reserve himself for an opportunity of farther discussing the prin ciple of the Bill on the third reading. With respect to bankruptcies, he conceived what had been suggested by an hon. and learned gentleman to be an improvement, and if any such amendment was moved on the third reading, he should give it his support. He should not move, however, such an amendment himself, but should it not be moved, he thought the Bill ought to be rejected. As the evil complained of was of a temporary nature, the remedy also, he contended, ought to be temporary, and the Bill, therefore, limited to a certain duration. Mr. M. A. Taylor disclaimed having any intention of moving the amendment alluded to, but thought it would be desirable, if there was any disposition on the part of the framers of the Bill to meet it. Mr. Lockhart, referring to a clause in the Bill where it was stated that the ViceChancellor should determine all causes as the Lord Chancellor or Lord Keeper should direct, thought it of the greatest importance that this part of the Bill should be more defined or better understood. It was necessary to know how this autho rity was to be given, as much of the landed property of the kingdom might be held The Solicitor General said, that the mode of determining what causes were to be heard by the Vice-Chancellor would be by orders issued, from time to time, by the Chancellor, Keeper, or the commissioners holding the great seal. As to the indecency which was said to be apprehended from the subordinate condition in which the Vice-Chancellor would be placed with respect to the Chancellor, when it was said he might be interrupted by the Chancellor's bell, what was the case at present when a judge and two Masters in Chancery sat for the Lord Chancellor? They proceeded to hear such causes as might be dispatched within the time during which it was probable they would sit. This would be the case with the Vice-Chancellor. The Chancellor would discover what was the most convenient manner of conducting the business, and signify it to the Vice-Chancellor; and from the harmonious manner in which business was conducted in Chancery, no evil was to be apprehended from this mode of proceeding. He had never pledged himself to propose any amendments in the Committee, but he had said that any objections against the Bill might be remedied there. As something must be done to remedy the existing evil, what had been proposed instead of this Bill? To take a judge, of whose integrity and talents enough could not be said in praise, and load him with all this additional business; and this, though that honourable person had stated to his constituents that the pressure of his ordinary business was such as to compel him to abandon the pleasing duties of representing his native county in that House. A certain number of juridical days were marked out with mathematical accuracy, and were to be imposed on the Master of the Rolls, although that officer had been begged, by the gentlemen of the profession attending his court, to desist from even his ordinary sittings, lest his valuable life might be endangered. The question was not of willingness or unwillingness, but of personal capacity to perform such additional duty. But it was said the duties would uot be imposed without additional emolu. ment. Was it a compliment to this judge who had declined the most grateful duties, to say to him, that he must now come forward and play the part of Scrub or Mungo. An hon. and learned gentleman, whom the House would not have forgot to have been the chairman of the committee to enquire into the Chancery delays (even had he not himself informed them of it,) had looked on this scheme as visionary, though he disliked the present Bill. The judges in Westminster-Hall were so burthened with business, that no assistance could be expected from them. As to sending the Chief Baron of the Exchequer to the Cockpit, no court, it was well known, could exist without its head-not even a bench of justices, as any gentleman opposite, who happened to be chairman of one, might know. The courts of Westminster consisted constitutionally of four judges, and it would be a discovery of that night if it was found that they could go on with three. Mr. Taylor explained. He had not laid any stress on his having been chairman of the committee, but had merely mentioned it incidentally. The Solicitor General explained, that he had only mentioned that the hon. gentleman was chairman of the committee to his honour. Mr. Whitbread said, that during his whole parliamentary life he had never witnessed such an instance of rapid growth as they had seen that night. The infant of that day week had become a giant. The hon. and learned Solicitor General, who but a week ago was so diffident that he could scarcely venture to obtrude himself on the House; who professed himself to have no practical knowledge of the Court of Chancery, had, after having pledged his reputation that the expedient before them would be successful, came forward that night, and after speaking with full confidence to a point of practice in the Court of Chancery, proceeded to a speech full of sarcastic allusions. The allusion to the hon. and learned chairman of the committee, they must understand as being devoid of sarcasm, notwithstanding the tone and manner in which they were delivered. He had as much respect as any one for the Master of the Rolls, but notwithstanding all the lamentation which they had heard for the absence of that learned judge, which lamentation, no doubt, would be renewed to the full, in the case of any one appointed to the office of Vice-Chancellor, he (Mr. W.) thought it expedient, that not only the Master of the Rolls, but the Masters in Chancery, and the Welch Judges, should be excluded from the House, although no doubt sir W. Grant had made a great display of talent in that House, and even risen to his high office by that means. [No! from the ministerial side.] This was the first time he had heard the fact disclaimed. The question should not be considered personally as it respected the Master of the Rolls, but the officer in general. The only imputation he had heard on the Master of the Rolls, was that brought forward by an hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Stephen), on a former night; who had stated that that judge would not sit at the Cockpit, from a political pique against the administration, and this formed an additional reason that the Master of the Rolls should not have a seat in parliament, where he was exposed to political partialities. The Master of the Rolls would not permanently have this additional business, as much of the pressure arose from the circumstance, that the Chancellor, through an anxious desire to do strict justice, did little or nothing. As other opportunities would offer for delivering his sentiments upon the principle of the Bill, he should only say one word as to the harmony always supposed by the Solicitor General to exist in the Court of Chancery. There were instances, such as in the case of lord Thurlow, and lord Alvanley, where the Chancellor conceived the greatest contempt for the Master of the Rolls, and would never suffer that judge to sit for him. If such a prejudiced Chancellor existed hereafter, a ViceChancellor, though endowed with all the learning and all the talents, forensic and parliamentary, of the hon. and learned Solicitor General, might be reduced to a sinecurist. He might strut about with his train-bearer and his secretary-great at a levee or any where else-but in the Court of Chancery worse than nothing. Lord Castlereagh thought, that nothing in his hon. and learned friend's speech justified the attack which the hon. gentleman had made on him. The characteristic of what his hon. and learned friend had said on a former night, and what he had that night repeated, was, that it had all the weight of argument, and was stated in a perfectly inoffensive manner. His hon. and learned friend could not be accused of arrogance, seeing that he had been challenged as a lawyer to come forward, and had done so accordingly.-In answer to an objection which had been been urged with respect to the possible abuse of the authority to be given by this Bill, he would observe that the Lord Chancellor might now, as the law at present existed, come into court, and take any cause out of the hands of the Master of the Rolls, even after it had commenced. This consequence, improbable and unheard of as it was, might be expected to happen if we were to argue from the abuse of the law and not the use of it. The different plans which had been proposed to be substituted for the present Bill were a sort of contre-projets which operated the one as a complete negative upon the other. One hon. gentleman opposite had that night distinctly stated his conviction that the erecting the bankruptcies into a separate department would create much difficulty and confusion. He himself thought that the same interruption and confusion would necessarily follow from overloading the Master of the Rolls with all the arrears in the Court of Chancery, and separating him from a court where he had so long presided with honour to himself and satisfaction to this as well as to foreign countries. He totally disapproved of that complexity of movement and judicial machinery by which it had been proposed to transfer the judges from court to court, and to supply the absence of one from his proper sphere by the successive removal of others out of theirs. He did not believe that the great and excellent character who had been so often referred to would ever stand in the way of any advantage to his country, but he conceived that in case of any such arrangement being adopted, it would be absolutely necessary for him to retire from the high situation which he now filled. It was not historically true, that the Master of the Rolls owed his elevation to the talents which he had displayed in that House; he owed it chiefly and originally to the distinction which he had obtained in the Court of Chancery, and at the bar of the House of Lords. He must enter his protest against any measure which proceeded on the supposition that the evil to be remedied was a temporary evil. Even if a temporary office were in this view created for the purpose, no eminent professional man would accept of it, unless on condition of the continuance of the salary after his services had ceased. Why, then, throw a character of doubt and disrespect upon the office without any advantage to result from it? It would be at all times in the power of parliament to annul the office, if found unnecessary, as they had created it. Mr. Stephen should not have risen, but for the notice which had been taken of an allusion made by him on a former night, to the cause of the Master of the Rolls withdrawing himself from the Cockpit. He conceived that no imputation was implied in the statement he had made, which, however, was founded only on common rumour. His attendance there was no part of his official duty, it was perfectly gratuitous, and he was at liberty to continue or discontinue it as he saw proper, The time that he had withdrawn himself from the Cockpit, was, when a certain administration was endeavouring to supplant him in the county which he had long represented. At such a time, it would not be wondered at, if he did not continue to give his voluntary attendance at a place, where it was not his particular duty to attend. Mr. Whitbread did not know any thing more of the transaction than what he had learned from the information of the hon. and learned member, who had stated that the Master of the Rolls had been ill-treated by the ministry of 1806. Because he had been opposed in a county election, he had, it seemed, retired from the Cockpit out of political pique and resentment. He did not attach much credit to the rumour, but he thought that, if true, it implied a censure on the conduct of the Master of the Rolls. time to time direct. It had been said that Sir Samuel Romilly wished to under- Mr. Wetherall could not conceive how stand the Bill, which he was unable to do such a power as that alluded to by the from the Bill itself, without the assistance hon, and learned gentleman could be unof those who framed it. He wished to be derstood to exist in the Chancellor. The informed, whether it was intended to trans- fair construction of this Bill certainly was, fer causes set down for the Master of the that the Chancellor could not transfer Rolls to the Vice-Chancellor; if the causes causes set down for the Rolls Court. As were so transferred, it would create con- to the expedicnt suggested of detaching siderable dissatisfaction, and a multiplica- the bankrupt business, that branch he contion of business by constant appeals; if it ceived to be now so closely and constiwere not intended so to transfer them, all tutionally connected with the original juthe causes would be set down before the risdiction of the Court, that it could not Master of the Rolls. He wondered how be separated without great hazard and ingentlemen who had professed on a former convenience. If a new judge were created night to be satisfied, not with what the for the dispatch of bankruptcy business, it Bill was, but with what it might be, should would be creating a jurisdiction without express their approbation of the Amend- appeal, which appeared to him a greater ments. It was precisely the same that it innovation than the object of the present was. The only alteration was in the omis- Bill. It was not quite reasonable to exsion of the words, "under certain restric-pect such uniform and unfailing rectitude tions and regulations," but the Vice-Chan- in any judge as totally to supersede the cellor was still to proceed to decide only necessity of appeal. The most active and such causes as the Chancellor should from vigilant might sometimes slumber in a long |
