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precedent. The situation had been divided for parliamentary and other purposes. He would, however, support the amendment; he could not do otherwise, as it was always his principle to do away with a sinecure place. Savings of 10,000l. or 20,000l. were not immaterial. They were small as to the whole amount of our taxes, but not small as to the principle. As to the Irish barrack service, he recommended the continuance of the practice of laying papers annually on the subject before the House. Lord Castlereagh said, that the only expence incurred by sending the life guards to the peninsula was the raising of another troop; he thought it was but fair they should have gone, otherwise they would be deprived of the ordinary advantages of the army. The extraordinaries of a regiment of life guards on foreign service were not greater than those of any other regiment. Though it was not desirable that this heavy corps should perform the duty adapted to lighter troops, yet it was essential, in time of action, to have a body of cavalry, of such weight, and so efficient in every respect as that in question, to bear the brunt of the battle. It was by the desire of lord Wellington that they were sent in his rear to the Tagus, instead of having been forwarded by Corunna to Castile, and in that gallant general's last dispatches, he said, he had reviewed the life guards and the Oxford blues, and never saw such fine cavalry in his life. As to the saving proposed by the hon. gentleman who spoke last, as it related to the volunteer corps and local militia, there might be some, but it would be so trifling that the experiment would not make amends for it.

Mr. W. Smith agreed with the noble lord with respect to the local militia, and thought that in the course of 20 years, if properly kept up, it would afford the most effectual defence for the country. He disapproved of the mode of enlisting men for life, in the moment of intoxication, or under circumstances equally improper; and thought that the way to ascertain the superior eligibility of the two methods. of enlisting for life or for seven years, was not to ask a man who was enlisted the other day, whether he repented of his resolution, but to ask him seven years hence. With respect to the manner in which the army was clothed, he did not see why gentlemen in that House might not form an opinion on it, when their opinion was the same as that of every man they

met in the streets, as well as of the persons who were condemned to wear these trappings, only fit for a mountebank. The hon. member agreed that permanent barracks might be less expensive than temporary ones, in time of war, but contended that they would be more expensive in the intervals of peace, which he hoped would be longer than they had lately been. He considered the argument of his hon. friend near him, with respect to the joint paymastership, as perfectly conclusive. If the paymaster's duty could be performed by one person, it ought to be performed by one person.

Lord Milton spoke to the same effect, and in favour of the amendment.

Lord Palmerston explained, that what he had said with respect to small savings referred to the impossibility of reducing the great bulk of the estimate.

Mr. Huskisson confessed that the force of argument employed against the doublepay-master-ship, would compel him to give his vote against it, and expressed a wish that the vote as to the home staff should be postponed till further information was obtained on the subject.

Lord Castlereagh was of opinion that the Committee could not, with propriety, postpone the staff estimate, because no material reduction could be made in that branch without injury. The number of troops in England and Ireland was very considerable, but the staff should not be proportional to the number of troops, but to the number of divisions in the districts over which the troops extended. The reduction of any part of the staff would be injurious, because it would cause a want of vigilance and regularity in the lower departments. There were

not less than 130,000 men on home service in England and Ireland. This body required a large superintending staff.

The House then divided upon the proposition of Mr. Creevey,

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List of the Minority.

Atherley, A. Aubrey, sir J. Bankes, H. Babington, Tho. Broadhead, T. Bennet, bon. H. G. Calvert, Cha. Creevey, T. Campbell, lord J.

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ILCHESTER GAOL.] Mr. Dickinson recalled to the recollection of an hon. baronet a petition which he had on former occasion presented to the House, from some persons confined in Ilchester gaol, for a riot at Bath; and who, in their petition, complained of ill-treatment. He also recalled to the recollection of the hon, baronet the circumstance of his having produced a loaf in the House, which had been sent from the prisoners confined in some jail. He wished to know whether the hon. baronet meant to proceed any further with those complaints.

Sir F. Burdett replied, that his time had been so much engaged by an election committee, that he had not been able to proceed further in the business of these petitions; and that he had no intention of pressing the matter any further upon the consideration of the House.

Mr. Dickinson wished to know whether the hon. baronet had inquired into the truth of the allegations in the petitions which he had laid before the House?

Sir F. Burdett replied, that the causes of the complaints preferred in the petitions had been removed.

Mr. Dickinson wished to ask the hon. baronet whether the loaf which he had produced had been sent from the Ilchester or the Bath jail.

Sir F. Burdett answered, that it had been sent to him from Bath.

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given to him, for his distinguished exertions in the battle of Salamanca upon the 22d of July last, which terminated in a glorious and decisive victory over the enemy's army; and Mr. Speaker gave him the Thanks of the House accordingly, as followeth:

"Lieut. General Sir Stapleton Cotton; In this interval between the active seasons

of war, your proper sphere of duty is within these walls; and we hail with pride and pleasure your return amongst us, bringing with you fresh marks of royal favour, the just reward of fresh services and triumphs.

"Descended from a long line of ancestors, whose names are recorded in the earliest ages of our history, and characterised with those qualities of prudence, generosity, and valour, which have laid the foundations of English greatness, your race has exhibited many a model of that splendid worth which dignifies the gentlemen of England, always prompt to discharge the laborious duties of civil life, and never slow to take up arms at the call of their country. Such, in an eminent degree, was that venerated person from whom you have immediately derived your own hereditary honours, endeared by his active virtues to the public men of his own times, not unknown to some who still sit amongst us, and ever remembered by myself with the sincerest sentiments of respect and affection.

"But, Sir, when the path of early life lay open to your choice, the then warlike state of the world called forth a congenial spirit, and your military ardour led you to encounter the toils and dangers of war in distant climates. Trained in the same camps, and animated by the same love of glory, as the great captain who now commands our armies, and fills the world with his renown, you have bravely followed his brilliant career, and shared in his unexampled triumphs. Renouncing the charms of ease, and the seat of your ancestors, you have gallantly gone forth to the tented fields of Portugal and Spain; and, having reaped the harvest of our thanks for your achievements in the battle of Talavera, you now stand before us crowned with the never-fading laurels of Salamanca: your squadrons, upon that memorable day, overthrowing the enemy's embattled ranks, laid open the road to victory; and the work which your gallantry had commenced, your triumphant perseverance completed.

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"Mr. Speaker; I cannot express how much I feel gratified and honoured by the vote of thanks which has been passed by this House, and conveyed to me by you, Sir, in so flattering a manner; I am indebted to the discipline and bravery of the troops I have the honour to command for this most distinguished reward.

"In zeal for the service, and attachment to my king and country, I yield to no man; my feeble efforts shall ever be exerted to render myself worthy of the very great honour which has been conferred upon me."

Ordered, nem. con. That what has been now said by Mr. Speaker, in giving the Thanks of this House to Lieut. General Sir Stapleton Cotton, together with his Answer thereto, be printed in the Votes of this day.

ARMY ESTIMATES.] Mr. Lushington brought up the Report of the Committee of Supply.

Mr. Creevey intimated his intention, in consequence of the important business which stood for that night, to postpone until that day week, his motion relative to the second paymaster of the forces, and his deputy.

The various Resolutions were then agreed to, with the exception of that for granting 460,5871. 6s. 4d. for Barracks, which being read,

Mr. Fremantle drew the attention of the House to the item in this grant of 125,6671. for new barracks in Ireland, respecting which no information whatever had last night been afforded by ministers. Conceiving it highly proper that the House should be told the object and the extent of these projected buildings, he would move an amendment to suspend the grant of this 125,6671. by substituting the sum of 334,920l. 6s. 4d. for 460,5871. 68. 4d. in the Resolution submitted for the approbation of the House.

Lord Palmerston observed, that his right hon. friend and himself had last night stated all that they could recollect on the subject of the hon. gentleman's inquiry. For several years a considerable number of barracks had been in progress in Ireland, in order to relieve the civil community from the great pressure of the troops, and to save to the public the expence of hiring buildings for the purpose. Several of those barracks were to have been completed by the end of 1812; although he was not aware whether they had actually been so completed. Another description of barracks was also in such forwardness, in Ireland, as to be expected to be brought to a completion in the present year. The effect of agreeing to the hon. gentleman's amendment would be, that these works, so begun, would be suspended; and that the money already expended would be totally lost to the public. If the hon. gentleman wished for more detailed accounts on the subject he was sure that his hon. friend would be very ready to produce them.

Mr. Fremantle declared, that he would not press his amendment if the right hon. gentleman would assure him, that he would lay before the House all these details, which in his opinion were indispensible on the subject.

Mr. Peele having intimated that he had no objection to the production of the information required, and that the hon. gen. tieman might have had it before had he chosen to move for it, Mr. Fremantle withdrew his amendment.

COMMITTEE ON THE STATE OF THE LAWS AFFECTING THE ROMAN CATHOLICS.]

Mr. Grattan moved the order of the day, for the House" to resolve itself into "a committee of the whole House, to take "into its most serious consideration the "state of the Laws affecting his Majesty's "Roman Catholic subjects in Great Britain " and Ireland, with a view to such a final "and conciliatory adjustment as may be "conducive to the peace and strength of "the United Kingdom, to the stability of "the Protestant establishment, and to the "general satisfaction and concord of all "classes of his Majesty's subjects."

On the motion, that the Speaker do leave the chair,

Mr. Lushington said, that as perhaps after the Speaker had left the chair, be should have no opportunity of delivering his sentiments on the important question then be

fore the House, he trusted to their indul- | favour, and, as it was supposed, in their gence for a short time, while he briefly expressed his sentiments upon the subject: and he hoped, at the same time, that no accusation of intolerance or bigotry would be preferred against him, for the opinions he was about to utter. He was as sincere a friend to tolerance, when it could be safely granted, as the hon. gentlemen who were the warmest advocates of the Catholic cause, and he was confident he might say the same of the respectable clergy of the city he had the honour to represent (Canterbury.) They had, it was true, presented a petition against the claims of the Roman Catholics, but it was on the grounds he had just professed, and which were not removed by the propositions of the right hon. gentleman who had introduced the motion. That right hon. gentleman did not appear to him to have established sufficient grounds to overset at once all the land-marks of the constitution, as settled by the Bill of Rights. This fundamental law of the land had been attacked on account of the temper of the times it which it was enacted. No reference, however, had been made to the time in which, previous to that, Roman Catholics enjoyed civil power in this country; and this he considered on the part of the hon. gentlemen opposite, as a proof of discretion; for surely their conduct in those times of their power, would not have disposed the House in 'favour of the motion; nor had he referred the House to the example of other countries where the Catholics enjoyed political power, and where the concord and conciliation of all classes of the inhabitants had been thereby promoted. The hon. gentleman then commented on the perpetual variations in the conduct of the Roman Catholics of the present day. He was afraid that by yielding to the demands of the Catholics, the very reverse of concord and conciliation would be the consequence as long as they professed their obnoxious doctrines. The Catholics had shewn no disposition to concession. A right hon. friend of his (Mr. Canning) had proposed last session a motion in their favour, but it had been hardly carried, when the Roman Catholics declared that they would listen to no concession whatever on their side. Again, lord Grenville had announced in another place, that they were disposed to concede the Veto, but he had scarcely returned home when the same Roman Catholics denied every assertion he had made in their

names. In this state of things it was the duty of the right hon. gentleman, before he proceeded to press the House to adopt new measures, to shew that the Roman Catholics had really and sincerely abandoned those obnoxious doctrines, which first made restrictions necessary. After the writings lately published and avowed by that society, he saw no hopes whatever of any accommodation, and in that view of the subject, he hoped that the House would agree with him that their best way was to retrace their steps. They were to go back to the Bill of Rights, and on that topic he had been astonished to hear a right hon. and learned gentleman (Mr. Plunket) whose eloquence he admired as much as any one, declare on the first night of the debate, that he saw no specific exclusion of the Catholics contained in that Act. He maintained, on the contrary, that the principle was contained in the very preamble, which stated that restrictions were necessary against them, as long as they retained the obnoxious opinions imputed to, them. Another confirmation of that principle was to be found in the preamble of the 31st of his present Majesty, to grant further immunities; for that preamble stated, that whereas certain doctrines dangerous to the state and to civil liberty, were attributed to the Catholics, and whereas they were willing to disclaim the same, it was advisable to do away eertain of the disqualifications by which they had been hitherto affected, on their disclaiming those doctrines. From this he conceived that it was the duty of the right hon. gentleman to prove that the Roman Catholics had utterly disclaimed those opinions, before he called upon the House to grant them farther indulgences. He was desirous of impressing on the minds of the House the necessity of ascertaining how far the dangers, against which the Bill of Rights had provided, were removed, before they did away the securities which were intended to protect the Protestant constitution and establishments in church and state. He could not distinctly see from the speeches of the hon. gentlemen opposite, the nature of the securities which were meant to be substituted; and if it were once proved to him that they were likely to be satisfactory, no man could be more willing than himself to grant further indulgence to the Roman Catholics; he wished for nothing more than to promote concord among all classes of his Majesty's

subjects; but he was afraid that the continuation of the discussion would have no other effect but that of transplanting into this country those scenes of tumult and discord which had too often, and so lately disgraced Ireland.

The House then resolved ittelf into a Committee, Mr. Wrottesley in the chair, upon which,

that the people of England were in general hostile to the communication of their own privileges to the people of Ireland. The opposition to the Catholic claims was respectable: but at the same time they had received great and efficient support. he would not deny the name of respectNotwithstanding the opposition, to which able, how were we warranted to say, that the people of England were against the motion, when so few great public bodies had expressed their opinion? If such was the case with the people of England, sure he was that the great body of the Protestants in Ireland were still less unfavourable. The most respectable of the petitions from that part of the empire also were not founded on the principle of opposition, but on the principle of security to existing establishments. He had no doubt, in short, that the weight of Ireland, both in point of property and respectability, was decidedly in favour of the Catholics.

Mr. Grattan rose and said, that he had thought it unnecessary and inconvenient the other night, when the House shewed the greatest anxiety to come to the question, to go at large into any reply to the arguments against his motion. He would now, however, remark upon several of them; and in doing so he thought it right to observe, that he had made an alteration in the Resolution, as it was originally proposed. It did not, however, at all alter the principle, but merely modified the terms in which it was expressed. The alteration which he was sure could not But supposing that the sense of the nameet with the disapprobation of the option was divided on the subject, this furponents of the measure, was to this effect: That the House would take measures for restoring to the Catholics the privileges of the constitution, subject, however, to certain exceptions, and under such regulations as might be deemed necessary to support the Protestant establishment in church and state. This was a suggestion proposed by a right hon. gentleman, with whom, in principle, he completely agreed: and he did most willingly comply with it, not as any dereliction of the principle, but as a modification of the terms in which it was conceived. With regard to the church of Scotland and the people of that communion, they seemed to be perfectly acquiescent in the wisdom of parliament on this question. It was of great importance to his motion that he could say that the Presbytery of Scotland were not hostile to the measure of concession and conciliation. The Presbytery of Edinburgh were, indeed, against the Catholics, but that of Glasgow was favourable; and he might conclude from their not having petitioned, that the great body of the church of Scotland was friendly to the Catholic cause. Nor could it be maintained, that the church of England, generally speaking, was against the principle, though many of its members had been more active in opposing the measure, than the Scottish clergy had been; and though it might be granted that many of the clergy were not placable, yet it did not follow as a truth

nished, in his mind, a decisive argument for finishing the controversy by the wisdom of parliament: if they found the country in a dispute, it was their duty to terminate it as soon as possible. The truth was, that too many at present of those who enjoyed the privileges of the constitution, founded their arguments for exclusion on topics which affronted and insulted those who were out of this constitution; the controversy, therefore, must proceed to mischief, unless the wisdom of parliament interfered. He was convinced that many people in England, who signed these Anti-catholic petitions, did not understand the ultimate object to which they led; but were influenced by misconceptions and prejudices. If, for instance, they were asked, in plain terms, whether they believed the Catholics were enemies to liberty, and disaffected to government? he had little doubt they would answer in the negative; but, one opposition naturally begot another, and at length, by the mutual warmth of controversy, it might become a question, whether one fifth of the population was well affected to the government or not. There was no saying where such disputes might end. He regretted that so many of the clergy had shewn a disposition to place the security of the church on the principles of exclusion; by so doing, they did all that lay in their power to place it on principles which might be fatal to its existence.

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