dends, 140,000 monies unapplied in the exchequer, 679,9051. from naval stores, making in all 6,784,976/., cannot be properly considered as proceeding from the receipts of the present year, or as likely to recur in any future year; and that if this sum is taken from the sum of 16,584,976l. there will remain, what properly may be considered as the ways and means proceeding from the receipts of the present year, and as ways and means likely to continue in any future year, if the taxes do not become less productive, amounting to 9,800,000l.

32. "That if this sum of 9,800,000l., the ways and means arising from the receipt of the revenue in the present year, is taken from the sum of 27,677,065l. 2s. 3d, the expenditure properly belonging to the present year, the remainder will form the deficiency, which, if the establishments are kept up, is likely to occur in any future year, (with the exception of savings from the falling in, of pensions, half-pay, and other incidental expenses, but exclusive of the future charge on the sum to be now raised to make good the deficiency of the present year) amounting to 17,877,0651. 2§. 3d.”

which he had formerly hinted at. He wished his persuasion of that necessity might have proceeded from ignorance or despair, but he confessed that he did not contemplate the remedy he had alluded to, with that dismay with which others beheld it. If difficulties were looked in the face, it could not be disguised that sooner or later some reduction must be made in the dividends; and though some gentlemen had looked to such a measure with the most fearful and gloomy apprehensions of the consequences, he did not think that the effect would be so dangerous as was imagined.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that the hon. and learned gentleman who moved the resolutions had done himself credit by the clearness of his statement, and the abilities he had displayed; but it was impossible that he could concur in his resolutions, which only added one. to the string of gloomy prognostications. which had regularly been submitted to parliament at the close of the session, and which had never been acceded to by the House. The country, from year to year, had surmounted its difficulties, in spite of these formidable anticipations of calamity, On the first Resolution being put, and had finally triumphed in its great conMr. William Smith rose to second the test; and he trusted that experience would motion, and said, that though great accu- show, that the hon. and learned gentleracy of detail had been brought forward man's predictions were at least as groundby the hon. and learned mover, yet this less as those of any of his predecessors. was not necessary on his view of the ques- The chancellor of the exchequer said, he tion. He did not attach any blame to his did not mean to deny that the present difmajesty's ministers: the difficulties in ficulties of the country were great, but he which they had been placed were an ex- contended that, compared with those of cuse for many errors; but he recollected former years, they were not very alarming. that he had seconded the repeal of the in- We had long contended for existencecome tax, not because he thought the now the only question was, whether we money was not wanted, but because the could dispense with burthens which the measure itself was so unconstitutional that country had before borne, and under he thought it incumbent on parliament to which it had appeared to prosper; but redeem the pledge that had been given by from which it had very recently been rethe minister, and repeal the tax. It might lieved. He trusted that it would not be be said, that his hon. and learned friend necessary for parliament to recur to the had erred in some trifling particulars; but imposition of those burthens; but at any with that he had nothing to do-those rate that the country would not be reBums were so small that they made no im-duced to the extraordinary remedy hinted pression on the total deficit. Making all allowances for any errors or overstatements in the resolutions of his hon. and learned friend, the gloomy conclusion could not be got rid of, that in the next year there would be a great deficiency in the finances. Whether the deficiency was eighteen or ten millions, it was still appalling, and he was convinced that it could only be provided for by the remedy

at by the hon. seconder. This remedy, which the hon. member had mentioned less distinctly than became the proposer of such a measure, was nothing less than a national bankruptcy. The hon. member had on a former occasion spoken of the same proposal more distinctly, under the name of a reduction of the interest of the national debt. It could not be necessary to say, that to a proposition so devoid of

Grant]. He was glad to hear this disclaimed, because there was nothing from which he apprehended more evil to the country than the anxiety for further relief from taxation. The hon. and learned gentleman showed something like injustice in wishing to bind ministers to economy and to a reduction of debt, while he took away their resources for meeting demands for the service of the country. The hon. and learned gentleman might rely on the wisdom of parliament, and the firmness with which the country would support what was necessary to carry it through its difficulties; but he (the chancellor of the exchequer) felt it inconsistent with wisdom or propriety to attempt to involve the legislature in a premature decision as to any particular course, and he should, therefore, feel it consistent with his duty to move the previous question on all the resolutions that had been read.

gentleman had allowed an increase of revenue to the amount of nearly 500,000l., on comparing the produce of the taxes this year with their produce in a former year; but against this he stated the amount of the new taxes at 900,000l., and the increase of the property tax to the extent of 200,000%, making in all 1,100,000l., which, if deducted from the increased revenue of this year, instead of making it appear greater than the last, would show a falling off of 600,0002. He (the chancellor of the exchequer) had, however, stated on a former occasion, that if some new duties were imposed, other taxes existing in the former year had terminated and expired. It would be found that war duties of customs and excise to the amount of 870,000l. had been thus lost to the revenue, which would do more than cover the excess of 600,000l. mentioned as a falling off. In a comparative statement of the revenue, the taxes belonging to the consolidated fund, and the other duties, should always be taken together, because the payments were not always accurately distributed, and great injustice was always done to the consolidated fund in the appearance of the accounts, the bounties and drawbacks being drawn in much more than its fair proportion, from that fund. He would venture to affirm, that down to April last, so far from their being any decrease, there had been an augmentation of the revenue. He could not say what would be the state of the country in future; though there was a probability that there might next year be a falling off in some branches of the revenue, from the distresses of the country, and some causes in operation, such as delays of payment occasioned by failures in business, and repayments of duty on account of the taxes which had been taken off, the results of which would not be seen till another year. But on the other hand a counteraction was to be ex-membered that the country was in a very pected from the repeal of those taxes which was likely to render the remaining revenue more productive. On this prospective view he could venture to give no distinct or decided opinion-far less would he wish to pledge the opinion of parliament by entertaining the present resolutions or any others of a prospective nature. The hon. and learned mover had said that the repeal of the taxes had forced ministers to adopt measures of economy, and he seemed to wish them to be still more cramped [No! from Mr. J. P. (VOL. XXXIV.)

Mr. Ponsonby observed, that the accuracy of his hon. and learned friend's premises had been undisputed, and he was afraid that time would prove that his conclusions were not less accurate. It was on all hands agreed, that in the next year there would be a deficiency in the revenue, whether of seventeen, fifteen, or twelve millions he should not dispute. What then was the resource? The chancellor of the exchequer had accused his hon. friend (Mr. William Smith) of having barely hinted at his remedy; but as it was easy to divine that his hon. friend's remedy was the reduction of the interest on the national debt, so it was easy to perceive that the chancellor of the exchequer's remedy was the renewal of the income tax. The chancellor of the exchequer had accused his hon. and learned friend of despondency-but the despondency of his hon. and learned friend was better than the hope and joy of the chancellor of the exchequer. It was to be re

different situation from that in which it had stood at the conclusion of former wars. It was but a hundred years ago when there was but one power in the world capable of contending with us. The emperor of Russia had then come to this country to learn to build a boat, and some of the American states were scarcely planted. But now, not only France, but Russia and America were capable of contending with us, and we might be soon engaged in a struggle more terrible than we had ever met with.

(3 S)

He did not say that our

lidated fund was estimated by the chan cellor of the exchequer, at only three millions. If a committee up stairs had been appointed, as he suggested early in the session, the House would have been ena

cause of the difference between our income and expenditure, and hence some measures might have been taken to remedy the deficiency. To supply this deficiency, he understood, that very extraordinary means had been resorted to by his majesty's government. For instance, he had heard that several bonded debts upon warehoused goods had been called in, with a view to force up the amount of the revenue. On the other hand, it must be considered that many taxes which were productive in war, would be comparatively unproductive in peace. But on the whole, from the want of a due understanding of the actual state of our finances, which ministers appeared unwilling to make known, the consequence was, that most people were likely to think the danger greater than it really was. The public by being left entirely at the mercy of the chancellor of the exchequer, would be apt to indulge gloomy conjectures. Yet the right hon. gentleman was heard to say, " Leave it all to me, and you need not despond." But what was the ground of the right hon. gentleman's claim to a confidence far beyond any thing ever demanded by Mr. Pitt, who usually laid before the House at the close of each session, a statement of the finances of the country.

resources were not equal to the contest, but it was necessary that we should not squander that wealth, which formed the main power by which we had made our selves arbiters of the world. He did not believe his hon. and learned friend intend-bled to understand the amount, and the ed to divide the House on the present resolutions, but he thought he deserved great credit for bringing them forward. Mr. Tierney said, that the able speech of his hon. and learned friend who moved the resolutions had left him nothing to add to it; and what was more extraordinary, in what had come from the other side of the House there was nothing for him to answer. The course pursued on former occasions, when he (Mr. Tierney) had brought forward similar resolutions, namely, that of moving counter- resolutions, had been departed from in this instance. The chancellor of the exchequer admitted the premises of his hon. and learned friend, and only differed from him as to the conclusions which he had drawn from them. The language held by the right hon. gentleman this night, differed somewhat from that which he had formerly held. He now refused to give any pledge on the subject of the future expenditure of the country; though before, to obtain the vote wanted for the present year, he had been willing to give all sorts of pledges for the time to come. Comparing the receipts of the consolidated fund of last year with that of the preceding, there was an apparent increase of 750,000l.; but then it was to be recollected, that the amount of the produce of the new taxes, which he now found to be 1,000,000l. was to be considered; and to this must be added 200,000l. for the produce of the new stamp duties. Thus, in fact, instead of an increase, there was an absolute falling off, to the amount of 500,000l. At the same time he agreed, that nothing ought to be said which could cause despondency; for he allowed that the resources of the country were so great, that if properly managed they would carry us through all our difficulties. But then he was convinced that this object could not possibly be accomplished without the prompt interference of parliament. He advised the House to take the subject of our finances into its own consideration. He had indeed offered similar advice at an earlier period of the session, and that such consideration was necessary must, he thought, be generally felt, when it was recollected that the surplus of the conso

Mr. Thomas Courtenay denied that the revenue had fallen off, if we took a retrospect of four years instead of one. The revenue was, he said, increasing instead of declining. In the excise, which was that sort of revenue that proved prosperity more than any other, by showing that individuals were able to indulge in luxeries, the increase was manifest.

Mr. J. P. Grant rose to reply. He observed, that he had the melancholy satisfaction of finding, that all his main statements were confirmed by the chancellor of the exchequer; but he had also heard that which afforded him no satisfaction, namely, that nothing was to be done by government to provide for the future. The chancellor of the exchequer, indeed, deprecating any consideration of the future, had intimated, that "sufficient for the day was the evil thereof;" but it was of this improvidence he complained,

and the country must complain of it also. The inability of the public income to meet the expenditure was admitted on all hands; and still our first financier said, that "sufficient for the day was the evil thereof." He appealed to the House and to the country, whether this could be regarded as the language of a statesman competent to rescue the country from its difficulties. The right hon. gentleman had no doubt held out a prospect of relief in the application of the sinking fund, and the re-imposition of the income tax. So, then, the sinking fund, which was boastingly held out by its authors and advocates as the means of discharging our debt, was now to be looked to as a resource merely for supplying our expenditure, and the renewal of that odious imposition, the income tax, was to be contemplated by the country as the means of raising the income to a level with our expenditure! But how would the country regard the language of the right hon. gentleman? Was it possible that it could be endured, or that any minister would venture to act upon such language? After adverting to the calculation of Mr. Pitt, as to the surplus of the consolidated fund when our revenue did not exceed 14,500,000l. and contrasting it with the present surplus of that fund and its probable diminution in future years, the learned gentleman disclaimed the sentiment of an hon. gentleman behind him, the adoption of which was said to have a tendency to produce a national bankruptcy-namely, that the interest upon the public debt should be reduced. He assured the House that no such thought had ever entered his mind. Whatever measure he had in contemplation with a view to relieve the country, he never could have proposed one so inconsistent with sound policy and good faith as the reduction of the just claims of the public creditor. His measure would indeed rather operate to relieve those creditors than to injure or to commit any fraud upon them.

notice of his intention to move the second reading of the Alien bill on Tuesday next.

Lord Holland trusted that the noble viscount would explain on Tuesday the motives that had led to the introduction of this bill, which the noble viscount called an alien bill, but which he (lord H.) would call a bill for introducing alien law into England, and foreign ministers into the administration of our police. He trusted that the noble viscount would be prepared to explain what were the motives. that operated with regard to foreign powers, or what was the danger apprehended to our own constitution, from the designs of foreigners, that could render at all necessary such a bill. He hoped also, that before their lordships proceeded to the last stage, they would resort to that constitutional power with which they were invested, for the purpose of ascertaining who and what were the objects of this bill; and for this purpose, that they would put questions to his majesty's judges, in order to know what description of persons under the term Aliens would be effected by this

measure.

CIVIL LIST BILL.] The Earl of Liverpool moved the second reading of this bill. His lordship went briefly over the history of the civil list, for the purpose of showing that previous to the present reign the Crown possessed hereditary revenues, with respect to which, if they did not amount to a certain sum (700,000l. in the reign of queen Anne and George 1st, and 800,000l. in the reign of George 2d), it was agreed that that sum should be made good by parliament, whilst the surplus above that sum was at the disposal of the Crown, and referring to the bargain made at the accession of his present majesty, by which the hereditary revenues of the Crown were appropriated to the service of the public, and a fixed sum (800,000l. subsequently increased) granted for the civil list. A fixed sum having thus been granted to provide for expenses which necessarily fluctuated and from the depreciation of money necessarily increased, it was not at all surprising that that fixed sum should become inadequate to the expenditure it was destined to meet. Had, on the other hand, the hereditary revenues remained to the Crown, their increase would probably have covered any increase of expense. It was, however, of importance to ALIEN BILL.] Lord Sidmouth gave consider that the expenditure of the civil

The previous question was then put and carried upon each of the Resolutions. After which the Resolutions were ordered to be printed.

The House adjourned to Thursday the 6th of June.

HOUSE OF LORDS.

Thursday, June 6.