801] Civil List Bill. of this money. If this amendment was not adopted the money would be spent as the Crown chose; and when that was done, it would be said that the money was gone, and that parliament on that account could not refuse the annual grant, which was absolutely necessary for the public service, for bills to tradesmen, and for embassies; these services, it would be said, must be made good, and as to the expenditure of the sovereign, however extravagant, yet as the money had been spent, there was no remedy. It was monstrous to consider the sums which had been voted He did not wish in aid of the civil list. to speak harshly, but this was a subject on which to try the honour and integrity of the House. They should turn their consideration to the relief of the public, who wanted relief as much as the Crown, and more than the ministers. One member of the United Empire had been lately declared bankrupt in that House, and unable to pay a single shilling towards the public service. And even in this richer island from one end to the other the people were groaning under the intolerable load of taxes. And in this time of distress and misery, was it for the Commons to come forward to gratify the Crown and the ministry, to saddle the people with still greater burthens, to defray expenses which there were other legitimate means of meeting? If the House did this, they would draw down more disgrace upon their character than any House of Commons in England had ever been overwhelmed with [Hear, hear!]. Mr. Huskisson contended, that the right hon. mover had founded all his argument on the assumption that we were going to relieve the ordinary revenue of the Crown of 255,000l., which it was very well able to bear, and that the casual revenue of the Crown should be taken under the control of parliament. But this, from the nature of the fund, was absolutely impossible. The right hon. gentleman had made out no case at all; for undoubtedly it was better to follow that course of proceeding which worked its own way, than any ambiguous words in an act of parliament. Unless the right hon. gentleman was prepared to argue that the House had relinquished its functions of supervision, he wondered As he should propose such a measure. to the alleged waste of the droits, it had appeared that a very considerable sum had been contributed from them to the public exigencies. Upon this subject he had (VOL. XXXIV.) been led to consult the Journals, and from Sir Francis Burdett said, that it would be impossible to follow the hon. gentleman through the details into which he had entered respecting the expenditure of the (3 F) civil list in the last years of the late reign: | people. The difference between the noble it was sufficient to remark, that whatever lord and the right hon. mover was this, the disbursement might be, it contributed that the latter wished for the interposition to the splendour of the Crown, and to the of the House for the purpose of directing honour of the country: and that the di- in what way this money should be applied, minution of that splendour and dignity, while the former was anxious to be alfor the gratification of individual caprices, lowed to spend these immense sums in any was at least a false principle of economy, way caprice might dictate, and then miif indeed any saving were produced by it nisters threw themselves on what they to the people. The hon. gentleman who called their responsibility. The noble last spoke had, as usual, said much about lord had asserted that no proof had been parsimony and efforts at retrenchment, but given of any misapplication; that the it was generally found that the result of money had been devoted to making provithose efforts was, that the nation had more sion for the younger branches of the royal to pay. It was not a little difficult to family, and to other laudable purposes. comprehend the assertion, that the civil Were the Prince Regent, the duke of list was not competent to the expenditure; York, or the duke of Clarence the younger and when parliament was required to make branches; or were there not othersgood the arrears, it was necessary first to younger branches, their juniors, who, for consider how far the people were compe- political reasons, for some unaccountable tent to supply the deficiency-how far dislike (for which reason, and for their they were able to support the burthens al- merits, they had much risen in the confiready oppressing them, with the addition dence of the nation) were invidiously exto be made under the newly invented cluded from a due share in the benefit? By scheme of economical expenditure. It such means the princes of the blood, inwas a question of much doubt what legal stead of being mighty and independent right the Crown possessed to these droits, peers of parliament, were subjected to the since, by Magna Charta, it was provided, will and pleasure of the minister of the that foreign merchants should have free day. If the Crown had a right to dispose ingress and egress, and that on the break- of 200,000/., it had an equal right to dising out of a war, though they were at- tribute the whole four millions among its tacked, they should enjoy the privilege of favourites. It was high time, therefore, safety for themselves and their property. that this subject should be put upon its How, then, could it be legal for the sove- proper footing, and that the droits of adreign to seize their shipping in our ports, miralty should be devoted to reimburse on an unexpected declaration of war? the losses of our own and foreign merWas it not holding out a premium to the chants on the breaking out of a war, and Crown to commit acts of robbery and to reward those who were employed in the piracy upon the fleets of unoffending na- defence of the country, instead of being tions? The earliest attempt of the kind applied to the payment of all kinds of (fortunately unsuccessful) was in the time fantastical furniture. No money could of Charles 2nd, who endeavoured to pos- have been more misapplied than that which sess himself of the Smyrna fleet, but it was expended on the pavilion at Brighton had since become the accustomed practice. The sum thus obtained sometimes amounted to millions, and such an enormous unappropriated fund the Crown ought not to be allowed to possess without the control of parliament. The civil list act, which took away all the hereditary revenues of the King, on giving an equivalent, did not except these droits; and it was plain, from this and other circumstances, that the Crown had no legal right to them. The noble lord had admitted that the King held this money as the trustee of his people: for the benefit of his people, therefore, the king was bound to act, and the droits must be subject to the control of those who were the representatives of the it ought to have contributed to the dignity of the nation, not merely to the luxury of the Prince. The excuse of the noble lord, that the furniture was the property of the people, was ridiculous and only proved that ministers were troubled with a few mental misgivings. The last speaker had talked of the suppression of sixty inferior places; but that was not the fit mode of evincing a spirit of economy. It was not in the dismissal of persons who held menial situations, who depended upon them for their support, nor in the diminution of that royal hospitality which in former times had added lustre to the throne, that true economy consisted, while all kinds of paltry extravagancies (paltry he meant only as to the objects, not as to the amount), by | to it; But if there was any one principle which the national character was degraded, with respect to it on which they agreed, it were allowed and encouraged [Hear, certainly was on the principle of the prehear!]. It would require a long habit of sent bill. Indeed, the enactments of the credence to official assertion, before the bill now before the House provided exactly noble lord obtained belief for his statements for the arrangements which the right hon. in any place but the House of Commons gentleman wished to be adopted. He was, [Hear, and a laugh!]. An audience else- therefore, very much at a loss to know where would be very much inclined to re- from what motive the right hon. gentleman ply merely by laughing in the noble lord's opposed the bill, unless it was from a spirit face. It was not economy to put down a of opposition so inveterate, that as soon number of small places, and the next day as the right hon. gentleman found those to create a great place instead. As to the sentiments adopted which he himself at responsibility of ministers for non-obe- one time approved, he immediately abandience to the existing law, the hon. gen- doned them, and thought it necessary that tleman who spoke last had fairly avowed, he should oppose the measures of ministers that the act formerly passed for the regu- at all events. The amendment he thought lation of the civil list could not be exe- had been by no means supported by argucuted, and that ministers had not at- ment, and was quite unnecessary; as by tempted to comply with its provisions. the bill the control of parliament over the Was it to be endured that such language funds in question was complete. should be employed to those who had passed the bill, and had said it was fit that it should be executed? The consequence of setting that measure at nought had been, that new arrears were incurred; and at a time when every private individual was reducing his expenditure in proportion to his diminished income-at a time when the lower orders were in a state of the utmost want-parliament was to be told that the Crown was not to be confined in its expenditure, that arrears to any amount might be incurred, and that out of the pockets of the distressed people those arrears must be made good! The amendment of the right hon. member was most moderate, and calculated to meet the approbation of all men who were allowed to think for themselves. It required only, that the House should control prospectively, instead of retrospectively, upon the responsiblity of ministers. Great abuses had existed, and the correction of those abuses was the object of the proposition. Mr. Huskisson explained, that he had not said that the civil list bill could not be executed. Sir F. Burdett added, that the word employed by the right hon. member was, that it was inexecutable; and if it meant any thing, it was that the act could not be executed. Mr. C. Long was very much surprised at the nature of the amendment moved by the right hon. gentleman opposite. It had often been his fortune to have conversations with him on the subject of the civil Hist, and certainly they generally differed very much in their sentiments with respect Mr. Tierney, in explanation, observed, that he could not suffer the question to go to a division, without correcting the misconception of the noble lord as to his object in his amendment. The noble lord seemed to think that he wished to deprive the Crown of all control over those droits. He meant no such thing. He wished, that after the rights of the captors had been secured, the droits should go to defray the expenses of the Crown in aid of the civil list revenue. The House then divided, when the numbers were: For the Amendment......... Majority List of the Minority. Abercrombie, hon. J. 116 230 114 Calvert, Nic. Cavendish, lord G. Cavendish, hon. H. Cavendish, hon. C. Caulfield, hon. H. Carew, R. S. Chaloner, Robert Folkestone, lord HOUSE OF LORDS. Monday, May 27. ABOLITION OF SINECURE OFFICES]. Earl Grosvenor rose, pursuant to notice, to move for a committee to inquire into the state of the public offices with a view to ascertain what offices might with safety be abolished, regulated, or consolidated with other offices. He had hoped that his motion would not have been opposed by the Prince Regent's ministers, but he was given to understand that, either by a direct negative, or by moving the previous question, they were determined to get rid of the motion of retrenchment and economy which he was now about to submit. He had seldom offered himself to their lordship's attention under feelings of greater anxiety than he felt at present. When he considered the various details and difficulties of the subject, and the obstacles so often thrown in the way of civil reforms, he was almost ovewhelmed with the magnitude and importance of the question; and the more he thought upon it, the more he was convinced that it was a proper matter for a committee, and far beyond the powers of a single individual. Many considerations, however, influenced him to bring the subject under their lordships notice. Whether he considered the state of our finances, or the distresses of the country, he could not but think it of the highest importance in this way to bring the subject of retrenchment and economy under their lordships consideration, especially as he felt no great confidence in the sincerity of the ministers, when in the speech from the throne they recommended economy. He seldom troubled their lordships: for some years past he had hardly ever addressed them, except on this subject; but now he must carry them through a long and dreary waste of useless offices, with dismal prospects, and a pestilential atmosphere. It was unnecessary for him to state generally, that economy and retrenchment were highly desirable: in that proposition all would concur; and if any of their lordships ever felt any doubt about it, the petitions which had come up from every part of the country must have convinced them that the time for retrenchment and ecoThe situation of nomy was now come. Ireland, too, was a strong additional argument for a serious attention to this very desirable object; as the plan for consolidating the British and Irish exchequers, though a very proper one in itself, must bring a considerable additional expense on this country. When so many were emigrating for purposes of economy, and the distresses of the country were so great, he repeated that the time for setting really and seriously about economical reform was now come. The estimates for maintaining a very large military establishment had unfortunately been voted, which was the first comment of the ministers upon their own speech in favour of economy and retrenchment. These estimates, by the proper spirit which the country had evinced on the subject of the property-tax had been considerably diminished; but still they were of enormous amount, and proved the necessity for inquiry with a view to retrenchment. A time of peace was the proper period for such an inquiry. It had always been contended, in opposition to motions of this kind before, that a time of war was an improper period for discussions about reform. That argument, House of Commons, and passed therehad come up to their lordships, and had been rejected. The reversion bill had passed the Commons, but their lordships had rejected it. The sinecure bill had been there passed by a very great majority, but here it had not been allowed even to go to a committee. They could not begin the business of reform better than by considering themselves as in the situation of a person who had so reduced his fortune by his extravagance that he could hardly pay the interest of his debt. Suppose a person engaged for twenty-five or twenty-six years in a chancery suit, and coming out of it triumphant, but totally ruined-suppose he had his steward, his chamberlain, and a variety of other useless servants, his plan would be to dismiss them, and to retrench. The nation was in this respect like an individual, and ought to follow the same method. As to the sincerity of the ministers in their recommendation of economy, their attempt to keep up a war revenue in time of peace was a pretty good specimen of it. Happily the spirit of the nation had in some degree checked that attempt. But it now appeared that there was a great surplus revenue of upwards of two millions-a circumstance which had been kept out of view when the propertytax was under discussion. That tax, however, had fortunately been rejected by a decisive majority. He had drawn up a list of sinecure and other places which appeared to be proper subjects of abolition, regulation, or consolidation with other of fices; and that list he would refer to the committee, if their lordships should think proper to appoint one, that the committee might judge of it. The noble earl then read from his list the names of a variety of offices-the justices in eyre, auditor of the exchequer, clerk of the pells, paymaster of marines and others; and then adverted to some sinecure places in the home and war or colonial departments, which were not only unnecessary, but illegal. These offices had been created by the heads of the departments-for instance, the office of legal adviser, held by Mr. Stephen; whereas no new offices could legally be created, except by act of parliament. He had no doubt but the com however, was at end. We were now in a state of profound peace-in a state in which peace might, with tolerable prudence, be made to continue for some length of time. Whether France could long continue at peace must depend on the prudence of its rulers. He had always considered the restoration of the Bourbons as the best means for consolidating the peace of Europe; but he had expected this from their restoration under a free constitution, and not from the re-establishment of the Bourbon family in their former unlimited power. He was rather disposed to think that the king of France himself was convinced, that in order to give stability to his throne, it was necessary that France should have a free constitution; but he knew that there were persons about him who were of a different opinion; and if that opinion were acted upon, the consequence would be a reaction, and further wars. He was not jealous of the liberty of any nation. He wished that, under the blessing of God, all nations might enjoy a free and happy constitution like that of this country, and he hoped that in time all Europe would have that advantage, but if the king of France should listen to the pernicious counsels of some persons near the throne, and refuse to adhere to his oaths, and if he were to act upon that unhappy system which prevailed in Spain, then, indeed, he should feel strong doubts as to the stability of Bourbon authority, and the continuance of peace in France. But, at all events, whatever should happen on the continent, peace might with common prudence be for a considerable time preserved for this country, and therefore this was a most proper time for discussions on the subject of economical reform. He had now been for some years advocating the cause of retrenchment and economical reform. He had no share in the merits of the administration of 1806; but he could not help feeling great obligations to that administration for their attention to this subject, and for the appointment of the finance committee. He had often been taunted in that House with the question -What had that committee done? His answer was, that it had afforded much valuable information; and if it had not done more, it was not the fault of the commit-mittee would discover a variety of useless tee. It would have done a great deal if their lordships had permitted it. Every proposition made by that committee, had been strangled by their lordships in its birth. Bills had been brought into the offices which had escaped his attention, and a great saving might accrue to the public from the result of its investigations. It had been contended that these sinecure places were useful, inasmuch as they af |