HOUSE OF COMMONS. Monday, May 13. Mr. Bennet said, the system of solitary confinement was carried to such an extent, that even during divine service the prisoners were cooped in wooden boxes, so that no prisoner could see another. The motion was carried; as was also a motion for the rules and regulations of the said House of Correction. SOAP EXCISE BILL.] Lord Stanley said, that among the orders of the day was the report of the Soap Excise Bill. He had not been aware of the importance of the bill, which had advanced so far without observation, as indeed the bill had not been printed. Some constituents of his, who would be much injured by the duty, had applied to him on the subject, and he hoped the chancellor of the exchequer would not press forward the bill that day, that the persons affected by it might have an opportunity to state their case. became manifest. The system of solitary confinement arose from the manner in which the prison was built, there being no SOLITARY CONFINEMENT.] Mr. Ben- common room. The magistrates were nct rose to move for an account of the however building two rooms of that de number of persons confined in the Pet-scription. He did not object to the moworth House of Correction, in Sussex. tion. He made this motion on account of the manner in which these persons were confined, which was such as could not fail to meet the reprobation of the House. The prisoners in that House of Correction, who of course were not committed for felony, but for crimes which called only for correctional punishment, were kept in a state of the most complete solitude, in cells without casements, and without any kind of occupation or mode of passing their time. They were allowed to walk separately in the court-yard for a quarter of an hour only in each day. In this dreary manner did these unfortunate wretches pass their days, though confined for crimes that were far from meriting the utmost degree of severity. An unfortunate female had been committed to this prison, because she had been unable to find bail for some alleged assault, and was confined for three whole years till mental derangement ensued, and she was now actually in a mad-house. It had been said, however, that this female had been previously afflicted in the same manner, but that did not make the case less open to censure; for it was surely a most improper measure to confine a person in that state in a house of correction, where the proper medical assistance could not be afforded. He did not pretend that any personal blame was to be imputed to the magistrates, but the system was certainly defective, and when the case was before the House, he should make some motion on the subject. The hon. member then moved for an account of the number of persons confined in Petworth House of Correction during the last three years, specifying their crimes and the dates of their commitments. Mr. Burrell said, the female alluded to had acted in a most outrageous manner, by threatening to burn the house of a gentleman, so that he had been compelled to swear the peace against her: no one offering to become security for her, she was committed; and she had afterwards acted in the most violent manner, having assaulted in open court the person who had made the charge against her; so that her mental derangement, which he was of opinion had existed from the first moment, The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he had no objection to postpone the report of the bill till to-morrow. He should be able to show that manufacturers would not be injured by the bill. Lord Stanley said, he should thank the chancellor of the exchequer for any delay, but so short a postponement would be of little benefit, as there would be no time for the manufacturers to appoint a deputation. Surely those persons who used hard soap would be much affected by the duty being doubled. Mr. Protheroe said, there was a clause in the bill by which the duty was to take place on the 1st of May, instead of from the time when the bill passed. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, he had no objection to alter that clause. He then moved that the report be received to-morrow. Mr. Methuen objected to the precipitancy with which the bill was intended to be carried through the House. A short conversation ensued, in which the chancellor of the exchequer, lord Milton, Mr. D. Giddy, lord Stanley, sir M. W. Ridley, Mr. Finlay, Mr. G. Langton, general Gascoyne, Mr. Philips, and Mr. Ponsonby, took a part. The result was, that the report was then received, 498] Unconstitutional Interference of the Military. UNCONSTITUTIONAL INTERFERENCE OF THE MILITARY.] Lord Milton rose for the purpose of submitting a motion to which he trusted their would be no objection on the other side of the House. Before the recess, he had occasion to make a complaint of the unnecessary and unconstitutional interference of the military, and of an assault committed by them on himself, and a noble friend of his. After what passed in the House on that occasion, he little imagined, that in less than a month, he should have such a cause for complaint as he was about to state. What he had to mention did not coucern himself personally, but was made on behalf of the same noble friend, who with himself had occasion to complain at the time before alluded to. Perhaps gentlemen were not aware, that guards had been stationed in several parts of the metropolis, in the course of the morning. He himself had not been aware of it until late in the day, but so it was. Guards were stationed about Pall-Mall and the Haymarket, so that the free passage of his Majesty's subjects was interrupted. His noble friend (the earl of Essex) was going from the Haymarket to Pall-Mall, when he was stopped by a soldier, who told him he should not pass. His noble friend demanded the reason, and was answered by the soldier, that such were his orders. He then inquired for the commanding officer, and was told that he was at Carlton-house. His noble friend then demanded, whether there was a peace officer in attendance? To this the soldier replied, that he had nothing to do with the peace officer. He regretted that he did not see the hon. member for Devonshire, (sir T. Acland), in his place, as he should expect his vote on the present occasion; that hon. member having declared, when a former complaint was made on this subject, that if another such occurrence should take place, he would second any motion made on the subject. However, he trusted, that after what passed on the former occasion, he should have the votes of several gentlemen who then opposed his motion. The House would recollect, that on the occasion alluded to, the noble lord opposite had promised to take such steps as would prevent a future recurrence of the abuse then complained of. They now saw how that pledge had been MAY 13, 1816. [491 redeemed. He would ask the noble lord, whether he had been privy to the stationing of those troops? He believed he had not. The order, in his opinion, had arisen from another source, and that was the reason why the House should more strictly inquire into the subject. It was incumbent on the House to take such steps as would effectually prevent the liberty of his Majesty's subjects from being thus arbitrarily encroached on. On the occasion of the former complaint of the present nature, it had been said, that it was made from party motives and with party spirit. The same would probably be said on the present occasion. But he begged to deny the existence of any such motive in bringing forward the motion. The noble lord opposite seemed by his gestures to doubt what he thus advanced; but he would repeat, that the motion was in no degree connected with party. Party should not interfere in the decision of the House on the present occasion, for it was of the utmost importance to the country, and it was incumbent on the House to check this disposition to military government in limine, for if not so checked, it might lead to very fatal consequences. He again disclaimed, that either in the former or present occasion, there was any party spirit in the complaints he had made. The nature of the assault which was made on him, when not only his horse, but himself, was threatened to be cut down if he advanced, was such as rendered a complaint to the House absolutely necessary, and it was more necessary on the present occasion, when, as the House must perceive, the evil had not been checked by the former notice which was taken of it. He should like to know how the noble lord himself would have acted if such an attack had been made on him? He knew the noble lord was highspirited, and would not have borne it without resentment. He did not mean to charge ministers with wishing to introduce military government, but there were persons somewhere who were anxious to introduce it, who wished for the prevalence of military power for mischievous purposes, and who in imitation of the pomp of foreign sovereigns, would wish to live surrounded by military guards [Hear, hear!]. But it should bere collected, that the person at the head of the civil magistracy reigned by law and civil right, and that his authority was not to depend on his military guards. The throne of this The country was not to be permanently up- | ples and practice of the British constituheld by any other than the civil power. tion, and extremely hostile to the liberties He felt that he was warm on the subject, of the English people. It was quite a new but it was impossible he could feel other- system, which had grown up within the wise, when he considered the nature of last five or six years, and ought not to be the complaint he had made. There was suffered to continue. The House of Comanother case which had that day come to mons, the representatives of the people, his knowledge, of the undue interference were the true guardians of British liberty; of the military, but to which he would and he hoped we should still find courage not then call the attention of the House, enough to defend ourselves against the as he had not sufficient time to inquire military despotism which ministers, or into it, but he certainly should inform the those for whom they were responsible, House of it if the circumstance was re- seemed desirous of imposing on us. peated. He trusted the House would go noble lord had acquired the love of miliwith him in thinking that this was a case tary parade from the splendid sights which where it was incumbent on them to inter- he had seen abroad; but he ought not to fere. Great evils frequently had their forget that the strength and glory of the rise in small beginnings, which by being British constitution had arisen from the suffered to pass unnoticed, increased in people, who were the best defenders of magnitude, while those who were accus- the throne, and who had enabled this tomed to witness them became callous to country to attain that exalted pre-emitheir magnitude or dangerous tendency. nence which she now enjoyed over the The interference which he complained of nations of the world | Hear, hear !]. was contrary to law, and that was one of his chief objections to it. The noble lord expressed a hope that he should have the votes of several members who voted against his former motion, and concluded by moving, "That there be laid before the House a copy of the orders issued to such of his Majesty's Life-Guards as were on duty this day, within the city and liberties of Westminster." Lord Castlereagh observed, that the two noble lords who had preceded him, appeared to him to entertain very unfounded fears of the growth of a military government, and even seemed anxious to search for proofs that a military spirit was prevalent. An individual might have been stopped in his passage through the street, or obliged to go a particular way by a soldier, but that was no proof of the preLord Nugent could not but be anxious valence of a military spirit; the soldier to second the motion of his noble friend. who had done so had acted under the He called upon the noble lord opposite to orders of his officer. The noble lord who redeem the pledge which he had given to made the present motion, disclaimed any the House when this subject was last be-party motives in bringing it forward; and fore them. From what had just occurred if he (lord C.) had smiled on the occahe was strongly inclined to think, that no sion, it was because he had some doubts other conduct could be pursued by him- on the subject. The noble mover had no other excuse could be alleged, than expressed his fears of danger to the conthat he had not influence enough to constitution, but the smallness of the subject trol the military mania which now prevailed. He could not agree in opinion that these were trifling complaints against the executive government. It was not on account of the ridiculous parade of troops on many occasions-it was not on account of the height to which this madness had gone-it was not because all our places of public amusement were perpetually infested with soldiers, that he thought it necessary to support the motion: it was because an English citizen could not pass through the streets of the metropolis, without seeing the sword of an English soldier drawn against him. He considered this as a growing system of military influence altogether adverse to the princi which excited them, and the magnitude of the tone which the noble lord had assumed, were calculated to render questions of constitutional principle of little importance to the public. He could not see why such alarm should be excited by the appearance of a red coat. Was it that it was stained with any degree of infamy, or that our soldiers had disgraced themselves in the late war, that their presence on any public occasion should be so much dreaded? He denied that he had on any former occasion given a pledge that soldiers should not be employed on court days. He had promised that he would apply to the secretary of state, that on such occasions the military should be under the direction of the civil authority, C. Burrell) thought that as the police did not do their duty, soldiers should be stationed to perform it, and two soldiers would be more efficient in such a place than one hundred constables. With regard to the conduct of the soldiers this day at Carlton House, he could attest that it was not irregular. He had seen them, and observed that it was with difficulty they could keep a passage clear. He himself had often found it difficult to get a passage on court days, from the very great pressure of the crowd. The soldiers at Carlton House were under the control of their officers, and would, even if disposed, be prevented from any abuse or insult to passengers. At the same time, he admitted that it was the duty of the officers to be in attendance in the street with them. had given an assurance to the House, and he now called upon him to state what that assurance was. The noble lord had contented himself with throwing out an aspersion, which was not new from that side of the House: he had insinuated, that it was the object of honourable members to attack the conduct of the army. He (lord N.) would not permit such an imputation to pass unnoticed. He repelled it with the utmost indignation: there was no one who loved the British army more than he did; he admired their bravery, and gloried in the success of their arms; but, as a member of parliament, as one of the representatives of the British people, he would not be deterred from saying, that he should be sorry to see the civil authority laid at the feet of the military power. (Loud cheers.) He called again upon the noble lord to state the pledge which he had given to the House, and it would then remain for them to decide whether that pledge had been redeemed. Sir C. Burrell hoped he should be the last man in the House to sanction any breach of the law, or departure from the principles of the constitution, but as he Lord Nugent rose to explain. Ile indid not think that either were violated insisted that the noble lord (Castlereagh) the instance alluded to, in such a manner as to call for the interference of parliament, he could not support the motion. The military, he observed, were not unnecessarily called out on such occasions as that, which required their attendance this day. On the contrary, their presence was absolutely required to preserve order. He had seen several occasions where their absence was severely felt, and when the marshalmen who were stationed to keep order, were struck and whipped by rascally coachmen, whom they could not control. So little did he think there was too great an interference of the military, that he wished to see it extended. [Hear! from the opposition benches]. He would repeat it, he wished to see the presence of the military in other places, besides those at which they were usually stationed. He wished to have them not only in PallMall, but up as far as Dover-street, in Piccadilly, where the accumulation of stage coaches was a constant source of riot and disorder [Hear, hear!]. The Mr. Brougham congratulated the noble number of coaches which were usually lord opposite on the great acquisition of stationed opposite the White Horse Cellar, strength to his arguments, in those of his was the cause of this disorder. These magnanimous ally, the hon. baronet who were attended by several runners, who, in spoke the last but one. It appeared to their anxiety to get passengers, frequently that hon. baronet, that the active interdragged respectable females, from one to ference of the military, instead of being another, so as sometimes to tear their curtailed should be increased, because a clothes, and oblige them to fly for shelter number of stage coaches had accumulated to the neighbouring houses. These cir- in Piccadilly, and because the runners becumstances he had been informed of by a longing to them were in the habit of dragpublic spirited jeweller in that neighbour-ging respectable females, in their anxiety to hood, who had himself been very active get passengers. And all this disorder, which in putting an end to the abuse. Ile (sir the hon. baronet had so well described, (VOL. XXXIV.) (2 K) don. The crowd itself, in his opinion, was caused by the soldiers, who stopped his majesty's liege subjects in passing through the streets. There would otherwise have been no more crowd on the present occasion than on former occasions. He had himself seen at least half a dozen city addresses carried in procession to Carlton House, and never witnessed any remarkable crowd or assemblage of persons: and it should be remembered that the citizens were enabled to pass through Fleet-street and the Strand, without any impediment, but the moment they came within sight of that quarter of the town where Carlton House was situated, a band of music was prepared, and a regiment of soldiers were in waiting, not to keep the peace, but to gratify that foolish love of military parade, which, to use the words of his noble friend, existed somewhere, though he did not mean to accuse ministers of creating it. would have been much worse, but for the active exertions of a public spirited jeweller. [Hear! and a laugh]. These were indeed excellent arguments to prove that the interference of the military should be extended! But the nuisance complained of by the hon. baronet might surely be remedied without the application of a military force. Were there no constables in the metropolis? Were they gone out of fashion? Was the police called upon to do its duty? It was their business, and certainly did not require the interference of the military. But the hon. baronet could find no remedy except in a red coat. That was his panacea. Now with regard to the question immediately before the House, he, for one, did not think it ought to be pressed beyond what it would bear. He was not prepared to say, neither did his noble friend mean to say, that the constitution was endangered because a dragoon had refused permission to an individual to pass along Pall-Mall; his The Attorney General said, he connoble friend had only affirmed, that an in- fessed he felt no such alarm as was enterconvenience was sustained by that military tained by his hon. and learned friend, and parade, the introduction of which was the noble lord upon the subject of the emwholly new in the metropolis, and that no ployment of the military, as growing out one had ventured to deny. Formerly of what had occurred that day. He bethere were only two occasions in the lieved his hon. and learned friend knew, course of a year in which the military as well as any one, that if a man, whether were employed-on the birth-days of his dressed in a red or a blue coat, invaded the majesty and the queen; and then they personal liberty of the subject, or stopped were called out temperately and in mode- illegally upon the king's highway, the ration. But now, instead of confining the courts of justice were open for redress, employment of them to such purposes, either by a criminal prosecution, or by an whole regiments, rank and file, were action for damages. He certainly did not paraded about when there was not even a think the question was one of a sufficiently necessity for a peace officer. His noble grave complexion to merit the attention of friend, therefore, was justified in the in- parliament. It had been said by his hon. ference, that somewhere or other there and learned friend, that this was the first did exist a tendency, as was proved by time the military had ever been so emevery day's experience during the last five ployed. He was old enough to rememor six years, to alter the customs of the ber, that during seven long years, while people, and habituate them more and an impeachment was going on in Westmore to the sight of the military. No minster-hall, he was regularly met by the one would deny that; and it would be for military, and told, that he could not go the noble lord to state whether, on a the way he wished, though he might by former occasion, when a similar subject some other road, and he could without the was brought under the notice of the least difficulty, on those occasions, have House, he did not promise that the mili- permitted the person who was driving him tary should in future be called out only in to get into a quarrel. To speak, therecase of absolute necessity, adding, that he fore, of the present being the first time, was himself ignorant by whose orders they was really to fall into a mistake upon a had been employed, but that he would in- point which could hardly be unknown to quire, and put a stop to the practice. At any member of that House. His hon. all events, he believed the present was the and learned friend complained of the place first time the military had ever been called where the soldiers were assembled, and out on the occasion of the sovereign re-stated that no necessity for them was disceiving an address from the City of Lon- covered, until they arrived in the neigh |