MOTION RESPECTING ALIENS.] Sir Samuel Romilly apologized for bringing forward at that late hour the motion of which he had given notice, and stated that he had been obliged so to do, in consequence of the precipitation with which the Alien Bill was pressed through the House by ministers, although no satisfactory reason had been assigned why this power, extraordinary in time of peace, should be invested in them. It had been said that the act at present in force would expire on the 12th of May; but that could be no argument for the bill, as there were now no foreigners in the country, whose presence ought to be considered dangerous. What he wished to gain by his motion was, to know the number of foreigners who had been sent out of this country at the instance of any foreign minister under the several alien acts. This would show to the House the manner in which this power, which was now sought to be renewed, had hitherto been exercised, and whether it had been in any instances abused. This information, he contended, was necessary, as the House should know, before they granted any such power, whether it would be likely to be abused; and they could only judge of this by seeing how it had hitherto been exercised. The House should also recollect, before they passed this bill, what were the circumstances under which the alien bill was first introduced, and compare them with those of the present time. France was at that period in a state of revolution, when the most dangerous notions of liberty were entertained, and when she was in the habit of sending delegates, who spread those notions to other countries. But the same dangers did not now exist. There were now no persons coming from France, whose presence or opinions could be considered injurious to this country, and therefore there was not the same necessity for the existence of such a law as the alien act. Sir Samuel then contended against the policy of a measure which would exclude alien friends from our shores, for we had now no enemies abroad, and therefore all persons coming to the country should be considered as friends, and should be encouraged as they had been ever since Magna Charta to the present act [Hear!]. He mentioned the high opinion which had ever been entertained by foreigners of the liberty and independence of English law, and particularly those of Montesquieu, and contrasted them with those entertained at the present day. In better times we had uniformly encouraged the oppressed to flee to this country as a place of refuge where they might exercise their industry and their arts. As one instance of the effects of the alien bill and its continuance, he would notice the circumstance of an English nobleman being ordered to withdraw from a neighbouring country, and the example of England was quoted in defence of it. He conceived that this new peace alien bill, as it was called, was designedly in furtherance of that alliance which existed for establishing and forming governments contrary to the will of the people, and thus giving the ministers of those allied powers the means of persecuting every individual who was obnoxious to them, and who ventured to entertain and cherish ideas of liberty. If it should turn out that no persons had been sent out of the country at the request of foreign ambassadors, he should rejoice to hear it; but he suspected the case was very different, and he could conceive no possible objection to a return of them being made. Sir Samuel then moved, "That there be laid before this House, an account of the number of aliens sent out of the country under any of the acts relating to aliens, upon the applications of any foreign minister, distinguishing the numbers in each year." Lord Castlereagh believed, that, ever since the introduction of the alien bill in 1793, it had been opposed by the hon. and learned gentleman most strenuously; but although that was the opinion of the hon. and learned member, yet parliament had adopted another view of the question, and it had been found consistent with the wisdom of parliament not merely to pass the act of 1793, in consequence of the distressed state of the continent, but, after the peace of Amiens in 1802, and that of Paris in 1814, laws to the same effect had received the sanction of the legislature. He trusted, when the Bill itself came regularly under the consideration of the House, that course would be pursued which had formerly been thought most proper to be adopted; and he had no doubt but that it would be satisfactorily shown that the motives for its enactment were still more pressing than in former times. The precipitancy with which this measure was carried through the House had been exclaimed against. He believed that nearly a week had elapsed since it was first introduced, and the bill had not yet passed its second reading. Dispatch was, however, requisite, because, as the present act expired on the 12th of this month, some inconvenience would certainly result if there was any unnecessary delay. The bill now proposed to be passed was a peace alien bill, in which an additional power was given to individuals to appeal to the privy council. He apprehended that the present motion, if granted, would be bringing the question most unfairly before the House; but he had no hesitation in declaring, on the part of the noble viscount who was engaged in this particular department, that he never had acted from the instigation of any foreign minister. That noble person had never felt himself authorized to act upon any thing but a British policy, and in no other light could it be considered. Upon these grounds, therefore, he felt himself bound to oppose the motion; and he should always think that he should be acting with gross inde cency if any communications made by foreign ministers were disclosed to the House. Mr. Ponsonby begged leave to read the motion to the noble lord, in order that he might know the purport of it; for not one of the objections he had stated lay against the motion, as it did not seek any one of the objects which the noble lord supposed it to seek. He begged of the noble lord to think of some other argument against the motion, for the sake of his friends who were to vote with him. Mr. Addington thought it would be extremely difficult for the hon. gentleman to show to the House that the remarks of the noble lord were irrelevant. It had been stated by an hon. member some time since, that instances were known of aliens having been sent out of the kingdom at the instigation of foreign ministers. This statement he then denied, because he was satisfied the noble secretary of state would never have acted under the guidance of any foreign minister: but, since that time, he had made further inquiry into the subject, and he had been informed by a very respectable individual in the alien office, that to his knowledge there was no instance of an alien having been sent out of the kingdom at the instigation of any foreign minister. The investigation was pursued still further, and he had desired two gentlemen, who had been long employed in the alien office, and one of them ever since its establishment, to refresh their memory with the necessary books and papers. Upon the question being put to them, they both declared to the same effect as others he had consulted on the same question had done. During the last session of parliament an hon. member, now deceased, representing the county of Bedford, had asserted, that certain Portuguese aliens had been sent out of the kingdom in consequence of certain representations from foreign ministers. At that time he was indeed unable fully to contradict the statement; but subsequently he had ascertained, that the allegation was unfounded. If, therefore, on parliamentary grounds, the motion was persisted in, for the same reason he should continue to resist it, although, in fact, no aliens had been sent out of the country under those circumstances, and the motion would be answered by a return with the expressive monosyllable nil. Mr. Baring really believed that the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Addington) received from those ministers, yet they were ordered from the country by what was called British policy. If no aliens had been sent out of the country by the instigation of any foreign minister, what grounds could be urged for resisting the motion? On parliamentary grounds that motion had been made, and it did not appear that inconvenience either public or private could arise from the production of the documents. Mr. Bathurst considered that no sufficient grounds had been urged for bringing forward the motion. If there were any instances, they might involve foreign ministers; and if there were no instances, the motion was unnecessary. with all his solemnity of expression, was totally unacquainted with what was passing in his own office. He hoped that some better grounds would be stated for resisting the motion than those already mentioned. The noble lord and the right hon. gentleman seemed to differ a little in their statements: the one said it would be improper to reveal the communications made by foreign ministers, admitting, therefore, that they did exist; and the other observed, that the motion, if granted, would be answered by a return of nil, as he termed it. He would have recommended the right hon. gentleman to have consulted, instead of his clerks, the noble lord, his relation, upon the subject, in order to have prevented this unlucky con- Sir Samuel Romilly said, he could not tradiction. With respect to the two Dutch consent to withdraw his motion; and he merchants, he could inform the House, was the more determined to persist in it, having paid particular attention to the sub- when he heard the frivolous reasons asject, that they had come to London merely signed for resisting it. His object was, from commercial motives, but had not not to make any unnecessary disclosures, been in the city more than a few hours, but merely to ascertain the number of the before a message arrived, desiring their persons sent out of the country by the inimmediate departure; and accordingly stance of any foreign minister, without they were obliged to leave the country. any distinction of names or persons. He The next day he personally applied to lord could not understand what the noble lord Sidmouth, to inquire into the reasons that meant by British policy. It might be had induced his lordship to give these or- thought an object of British policy to ders; and the answer was, that instruc- oblige a foreign minister, or a foreign tions had come to his office from the secre- court, by sending persons disagreeable to tary of state for the foreign department, it out of the country. He knew that inwhich were so percmptory, that it was im-dividuals were sent off on grounds not at possible for him to evade them [Hear!]. It plainly appeared, therefore, that these orders came through the office of the minister for the home department as a mere matter of form, instead of coming directly from the foreign minister. He happened to find out that his two Dutch friends were sent out of the country in consequence of the application of a foreign minister, and that the whole originated in ignorance and misapprehension. all connected with danger to the country apprehended from them. A cause happened to be referred to his arbitration between two foreigners. One of his majesty's ministers, he would rather not mention his name, as he was now dead, took a strong interest in one of them. In the course of the business, one of them was found to have misconducted himself. The noble lord to whom he had alluded, said that was a person who ought to be sent out of the country under the Alien Bill. He knew that immorality had often been made a pretence for sending persons out of the country. The noble lord had cha Mr. Addington explained, that his noble relative, the minister for the home department, had stated positively to him, that it was a proceeding wholly unconnected with any representation from any foreign mi-racterised him as a general enemy to alien nister. Lord Castlereagh said, he had acted entirely upon a British policy, putting out of view the policy of any foreign state. Lord Milton was sorry to observe this important question involved in such inexplicable mystery. It was stated that no aliens had been ordered out of the country at the instance of foreign ministers; and, although communications had been bills. Now, it so happened, that this was the first time he had spoken on the subject, and he had delivered no opinion with respect to the necessity in former times. But when the noble lord described him as an enemy to it in 1793, he seemed quite to have forgotten himself; for that was thirteen years before he was a member of parliament! This was exactly the fable of the wolf and the lamb. It really was unworthy of the noble lord to seek For the Motion......... 31 Majority.... 82 -51 Sir John Cox Hippisley gave notice that he should move for the appointment of a select committee to examine and report upon the regulations prevailing in foreign states, respecting the intermission of papal rescripts, and the intercourse of their Roman Catholic subjects with the see of Rome; and also upon the nomination, election, collation, or institution of the episcopal order of their clergy of the Roman communion. Mr. Ponsonby observed, that several orders of the day remained undisposed of. He should be sorry to retard the business of the country; but if it were intended, at so late an hour, to proceed with the committee on the Bank Restriction Bill, he should oppose it by every means in his power. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, that as so large a portion of the night had been devoted to a discussion of the substantive merits of the Bank Restriction Bill, he conceived it might be suffered to go through the committee, but as the right hon. gentleman objected to such a proceeding, he would postpone the committee to Friday.-The House then adjourned at half past two o'clock. HOUSE OF LORDS. Friday, May 3. REVISION OF THE STATUTE BOOK.] The order of the day being read, Earl Stanhope rose to submit his promised motion on the subject of the Statutebook. It was impossible, he said, that their lordships could be summoned for the discussion of a subject of greater importance than that of the revision of the statute-book. Before he stated the remedy which he proposed for the enormous evil of the undigested and confused condition of the statute-book, he begged leave to mention, that there were two precedents which directly involved the principle of that remedy. The one was the proposition of a noble friend of his (lord Grenville) in 1809, for forming into one act all those acts which imposed the punishment of death in revenue cases. This proposition had been adopted, and the object had been accomplished. The other was a proposition made by himself last session, for a reference to the judges to prepare a bill for reducing into one act all the acts of imposing the punishment of the pillory, which had also been adopted, and the bill now lay on their table. What he should now propose rested on the same principle, but at the same time carried it much farther. Now, at the end of this last bill prepared by the judges, they had inserted some observations, stating that the pillory was the punishment for some offences, not merely by statute, but at common law; and also that they could not say that there might not be statutes on the subject which had escaped their attention. He did not mean to impute blame any where, and, least of all, did he mean to cast any reflection on the judges, whom he most highly respected and venerated, and he thought the reserve with which they had spoken highly becoming and proper, and as fair as it was honourable: but, in point of fact, there were, two statutes on this subject, which had escaped their observation, and these were an act of the 2d Geo. 2nd and 31 Geo. 2nd. By the first of these the pillory might be inflicted, or fine and imprisonment, and also transportation for seven years, for the crime of perjury and subornation of perjury. By the second act the punishment of the pillory was taken away in cases of perjury, or subornation of perjury, resorted to for procuring probate of seamen's wills or letters of administration, in order to procure seamen's wages; and the offence was made liable to the punishment of death. Here, then, were acts which had even escaped the judges, though the matter had been referred to them six months before the bill was produced. Let it not be imagined that he blamed them, or any of them; but he wished their lordships to mark that circumstance, in order to give them some idea of the real state of the statute-book, when the judges found it difficult to find out and state what the law was. Something similar had happened in the case of one of the public departments, which had been ordered by the House of Commons to furnish a return of the laws inflicting the punishment of transportation. When a long time had elapsed, and an explanation was asked, why it was not made, the answer was, that the investigation was so extensive that it required another year to accomplish the task. He imputed no blame there; but their lordships, from this fact, might conceive what must be the state of the statute-book. In reality, it was absolutely impossible, in its present state, for lawyers even of the first ability to make themselves acquainted with it. He had some facts to lay before them in illustration of this statement. During the trial of Warren Hastings, which lasted six or seven years, to the no great credit of the justice of the country, and from which he had seldom been absent for more than five minutes at a time, he made it his business always to come down to the House very early; and he had done so for the very purpose of conversing with the judges, who always came down before the peers. He availed himself of this opportunity to collect as much information as he could on the state of the law. From all the judges he experienced great kindness and attention; but chiefly from chief baron Eyre, who, perceiving that his object was to endeavour to introduce those improvements in the arrangement of the statute-book, and in other respects, which the mere accident of birth gave him the means of recommending, had been extremely anxious to afford him the proper information, and was not only kind, but very communicative. In order to make the experiment, how far the judges were agreed as to what was the law in several particulars, he had put various questions. For instance, he had asked whether a person digging the brick earth from his own field, there manufactured it into bricks, and sold, thereby made himself a trader liable to the bankrupt laws. The judges of the common pleas were clearly of opinion the one way, and those of the king's-bench were as clear the other. Did not this show the necessity of applying some remedy to the confusion of the statute-book? A gentleman of the name of Sugden had published two books, the one on uses and trusts, the other on powers; and the cases to which he had referred in the former book were 636 in number; and those to which he had referred in the latter were 799; making together, 1,435 cases on these topics. It was impossible that such a vast number of decided cases could be in substance recollected, and their principles readily applied, even by the ablest and most industrious lawyer. If any one should be of opinion that the science of law was in its present state of easy attainment, he had only to refer him to that little pocket compilation, Viner's Abridgment, which He was comprised into 20 volumes folio, and which, if it had been continued to the present time, would have amounted to 100 volumes. This was an abridgment. remembered, too, that Mr. Dunning, one of the greatest lawyers that perhaps ever existed, in the trial of the duchess of Kingston, or some such public occasion, when Viner was quoted against him, said, that is law, because Mr. Viner chooses to say so. Lord Thurlow was a most admirable common lawyer; but in a dispute which he had with him in that House on the subject of a statute, it turned out that he was right, and lord Thurlow was wrong. It was a great feather in his cap to have got the better of lord Thurlow; and he recollected, that upon sitting down near that noble lord on the woolsack, the noble lord said, "I should be ashamed of myself if I were not accurately acquainted with the common law; but as to your."— he could not repeat his expression exactly, and must leave a blank for it [a laugh]; -"but as to your-statute-book, it is impossible to be thoroughly acquainted with it." He remembered too, having asked Mr. Dunning his opinion on the. subject of a certain statute regulation relative to the excise, and Mr. Dunning's answer was," Now I'll tell you all about it; I but I never do answer these general questions when applied to by others. always tell them, show me the statute to which you refer, and I will expound it for you, but that is all I can do." What, then, must be the state of the statutebook, when it baffled such men as Mr. Dunning, lord Thurlow, and the judges? Might it not be said, in the emphatic language of Scripture, "If the salt hath lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted?" This called to his recollection the common expression-" the glorious uncertainty of the law." Glorious it might be to attor neys, conveyancers, special pleaders, barristers, and so forth; but it was most inglorious to the public. He did not mean to cast any general reflexion on any department of the legal profession: there were no persons more useful when they chose, and none had more the power of being useful: but there were exceptions of which he heard almost every day in the instance of pettyfogging attornies. happened to be the other day in company with a man very eminent in the profession, and asked him whether forms of leases might not be attached by way of schedules to acts of parliament, such as leases He |