MARTIN, 5. Psal. cvi. In cap. xxv. Ezech. The protest ants are like to the Ammonites and Moabites. FULKE, 5. could not think it was the same God that brought them out of Martin. We see then that the Jews had images without sin, but not idols. Again, for having idols they were accounted like unto the gentiles, as the Psalm saith: "They learned their works, and served their graven idols." But they were not accounted like unto the gentiles for having images, which they had in Salomon's temple, and in the brasen serpent. St Jerome writeth of the Ammonites and Moabites (who were gentiles and idolaters), that coming into the temple of Jerusalem, and seeing the angelical images of the cherubins covering the propitiatory, they said, "Lo, even as the gentiles, so Juda also hath idols of their religion." These men did put no difference between their own idols and the Jews' lawful images. And are not you ashamed to be like to these? They accused Salomon's temple of idols, because they saw there lawful images: you accuse the churches of God of idolatry, because you see there the sacred images of Christ and his saints. Fulke. We know that the Jews had images without sin, and so have we; but to have images in any use of religion without God's express commandment, neither is it lawful for them nor us, because we have a general commandment to the contrary. They were accounted like the gentiles therefore, for having images contrary to God's com cap. xxv. mandment, of their own appointment, and worshipping them; not for having images appointed by God, which yet it was not lawful for them to worship. But the Protestants, you say, are like to the Ammonites and Moabites, of whom St In Ezech. Jerome writeth', that coming into the temple, and seeing the cherubins covering the propitiatory, they said, "Lo, even as the gentiles, so Juda also hath idols of their religion," as we accuse the church of God of idolatry, because we see there the sacred images of Christ and his saints. This that you say St Jerome writeth, he only reporteth it as a ridiculous fable of the Jews: Ridiculam vero in hoc loco Hebræi narrant fabulam. "The Hebrews in this place tell a ridiculous fable." But fables are good enough to bolster false accusations. Secondly, he reporteth them to say: Sicut cunctæ gentes colunt simulacra, ita et Juda habet sua religionis idola. "As all nations worship images, so hath Juda also idols of their religion." By which words. you see, that he calleth images and idols the same things. For simulacrum to be taken as largely as imago, I have proved before, insomuch that man is called simulacrum Dei, "the image," not the idol, "of God," as idol is taken in the evil part. But neither are you like to Juda, nor we to Ammon and Moab, in this case. For Juda had God's commandment to warrant their images; so have not you, but his commandment against your images. Again, Moab and Ammon (if the tale were true) had idolatrous images of their own; so have not we. Martin. But tell us yet, I pray you, do the holy scriptures of MARTIN, 6. either Testament speak of all manner of images, or rather of the idols of the gentiles? Your conscience knoweth that they speak directly against The holy the idols and the idolatry that was among the pagans and infidels; from speaketh scripture the which as the Jews in the Old Testament, so the first Christians in against the the New Testament, were to be prohibited. But will you have a demon- gentiles, not against all stration that your own conscience condemneth you herein, and that you manner of images. apply all translation to your heresy? What caused you, being otherwise [Ridiculam vero in hoc loco Hebræi narrant fabulam. Postquam urbs aperta, templumque reseratum est, filiique Ammon et Moab et Seir ingressi sunt templum, videruntque Cherubim protegentia propitiatorium, dixerunt: Sicut cunctæ gentes colunt simulacra, ita et Juda habet suæ religionis idola. Comment. Hieronymi in Ezech. cap. xxv. v. 8. Opera, Vol. ш. p. 870.] idols of the FULKE, 6. MARTIN, 7. Rom. i. in all places so ready to translate "images," yet Esai. xxxi. and Zachar. Fulke. Verily the commandment of God, being a commandment of the first table, unto which whatsoever is said in the scriptures of images, or the worship of them forbidden, must be referred, speaketh generally of all manner of images made by the device of man for any use of religion, whether they be of Jews, pagans, or false Christians. But we are offered a demonstration, that our own conscience condemneth us herein, and that we apply all translations to our heresy. And that is this: in Esai. xxxi. and Zachar. xiii. with one consent all translate "idols," because God speaketh of the time of the New Testament, where if they had translated "images," they had made the prophecy false, because images in christian countries are with honour, but idols of the gentiles are destroyed out of the world so far as gentility is converted to Christ." A goodly demonstration, I promise you! That the translators had no such respect, it is plain; for that they do not understand the xxxi. of Esaias of the time of Christ, but of the reformation made by Ezechias. But in Esai. xliv., which is a manifest prophecy of the church of Christ, they all use the word "image" also Micheas the v. and in divers other places, where the destruction of idolatry is prophesied by the religion of Christ, which is verified only in true Christians; for otherwise both idolatry of pagans and of false Christians hath remained in many places, and yet remaineth to this day. Martin. And what were the pagan idols or their idolatry? St Paul telleth us, saying: "They changed the glory of the incorruptible God the idols of into the similitude of the image of a corruptible man, and of birds and the Pagans. beasts and creeping things, and they served (or worshipped) the creature more than the Creator." Doth he charge them for making the image of man or beast? Yourselves have hangings and cloths full of such paintings and embroiderings of imagery. Wherewith then are they charged? With giving the glory of God to such creatures, which was to make them idols, and themselves idolaters. Fulke. That the pagans changed the glory of God FULKE, 7. into the similitude of the image of man, &c. it was the extremity of their madness; but that they made images of man or beast, if you will not confess that Jupiter, Mars, &c. were men, and Isis a cow or beast, yet remember that they made images of their emperors, and committed idolatry to them: otherwise, to make images out of religion was not the offence of idolatry in them nor us, that have them in hangings, and paintings, and other lawful images. Bib. 1562. Martin. The case being thus, why do you make it two distinct things Martin, 8. in St Paul, calling the pagans "idolaters," and the Christians doing the 1 Cor. v. same "worshippers of images," and that in one sentence, whereas the apostle useth but one and the selfsame Greek word in speaking both of pagans and Christians? It is a marvellous and wilful corruption, and well to be marked; and therefore I will put down the whole sentence as in your English translation: "I wrote to you that you should not company with fornicators; and I meant not at all of the fornicators of this world, either of the covetous, or extortioners, either the idolaters, &c., eldwλoλábut that ye company not together, if any that is called a brother be a Tpais. fornicator, or covetous, or a worshipper of images, or an extortioner." In the first, speaking of pagans, your translator nameth "idolater" according to the text; but in the latter part, speaking of Christians, you translate the very selfsame Greek word "worshipper of images." Why eldwλoλáso? Forsooth, to make the reader think that St Paul speaketh here not Tons. only of pagan idolaters, but also of catholic Christians that reverently kneel in prayer before the cross, the holy rood, the images of our Saviour Christ and his saints, as though the apostle had commanded such to be avoided. Fulke. The reason is, because we count idolaters and FULKE, 8. worshippers of images to be all one. But "it is a marvellous wilful corruption," that in one sentence, 1 Cor. v., we call the pagans idolaters, and the Christians worshippers of images, and yet the same Greek word in both. If this were a fault, it were but of one translation of the three, for the Geneva Bible hath "idolater" in both, the other "worshipper of idols" in the latter place. And we think the latter to be understood of idolatrous papists, which worship idols made with hands of men, as crosses, roods, and other images, to as great dishonour of God and danger of their souls as MARTIN, 9. Martin. Where if you have yet the face to deny this your malicious and heretical intent, tell us why all these other words are translated and repeated alike in both places, "covetous," "fornicators," "extortioners," both pagans and Christians, and only this word "idolaters" not so, but pagans "idolaters," and Christians "worshippers of images." At the least you cannot deny but it was of purpose done to make both seem all one, yea, and to signify that the Christians doing the foresaid reverence before sacred images (which you call worshipping of images) are more to be avoided than the pagan idolaters: whereas the apostle, speaking of pagans and Christians that committed one and the selfsame heinous sin whatsoever, commandeth the Christian in that case to be avoided for his amendment, leaving the pagan to himself and to God, as having not to do to judge of him. FULKE, 9. MARTIN, 10. W. Fulke, John Howlet, fol. 35. Fulke. I think the cause was, that Christians might understand who was an idolater, and what the word "idolater" signifieth, which was used in the former part of the sentence. And if the translator's purpose was by this explication to dissuade the readers from worshipping of popish images, I' see not what cause he hath to be ashamed thereof, seeing the Greek word signifieth as much as he saith: not as though idols were proper only to the gentiles, and images to Christians; for in other places he useth the name of images, speaking both of the pagans and the Christians, 1 Cor. viii. Although for my part, I could wish he had used one word in both places, and either called them both idolaters or both worshippers of images. Martin. But to this the answer belike will be made, as one of them hath already answered in the like case, that in the English bible apConfutat. of pointed to be read in their churches it is otherwise, and even as we would have it corrected; "and therefore," saith he, "it had been good before we entered into such heinous accusations, to have examined our grounds that they had been true." As though we accuse them not truly of false translation, unless it be false in that one bible which for the present is read in their churches; or as though it pertained not to them how their other English bibles be translated; or as though the people read not all indifferently without prohibition, and may be abused by every one of them; or as though the bible which now is read (as we think) in their churches, have not the like absurd translations, yea, more absurd, even in this matter of images, as is before declared; or as Bib. 1577. Col. iii. 5 |