Rogers." The catholic church I never did nor will dissent from."

Ld. Chan." Nay, but I speak of the state of the catholic church, in that way in which we stand now in England, having received the pope as supreme head."

Rogers." I know no other head but Christ, of his catholic church, neither will I acknowledge the bishop of Rome to have any more authority than any other bishop has by the word of God, and by the doctrine of the old and pure catholic church four hundred years after Christ."

Ld. Chan." Why didst thou then acknowledge King Henry VIII. to be the supreme head of the church, if Christ be the only head?"

Rogers. "I never granted him to have any supremacy in spiritual things, such as the forgiveness of sins, giving of the Holy Ghost, authority to be a judge above the word of God."

Ld. Chan.-" Yea, if thou hadst said so in the days of Tonstal, bishop of Durham," (and they nodded the head at me with a laugh) "thou hadst not been alive now."

Which thing I denied, and would have told him how he was said and meant to be the supreme head: But they looked and laughed one upon another, and made such a business, that I was constrained to let it pass. There lies also no great weight upon it; for all the world knows what the meaning was. The lord chancellor also said to the lord William Howard, that there was no inconvenience in having Christ as supreme head, and the bishop of Rome also: and when I was ready to have answered, that there could not be two heads of one church, and to have more plainly declared the vanity of his reason, the lord chancellor said, "What sayest thou? Make us a direct answer whether thou wilt be one of this catholic church or not, with us in that state in which we are now?"

Rogers." My lord, I cannot believe, that you yourselves think in your hearts that he is supreme head in forgiving of sin, &c., seeing you and all the bishops of the realm have now for twenty years preached, and some of you also written, to the contrary, and the parliament has so long ago condescended to it." And there he interrupted me thus.

Ld. Chan. -"Tush! Parliament was with great cruelty constrained to abolish and put away the primacy from the bishop of Rome."

Rogers." With cruelty? Why, then, I perceive that you take a wrong way when you try to persuade men's consciences with cruelty. For it would appear by your doings now, that the cruelty then used has not persuaded your consciences. How would you then have our consciences persuaded with cruelty ?"

Ld. Chan.-"I talk to thee of no cruelty, but that they were so often and so cruelly called upon in that parliament to let the act go forward; yea, and even with force driven to it, whereas in this parliament it was uniformly received."

Here my lord Paget told me more plainly what my lord chancellor meant. I answered: "My lord, what, then, will you conclude that the first parliament was of less authority, because but few yielded to it? And this last parliament of great authority, because more have yielded to it? It goes not, my lord, by the greater or lesser part, but by the wiser, truer, and godlier part." And I would have said more, but the lord chancellor in

For," said he, "we have more to speak with than thou, who must come in after thee." And so there were indeed ten persons more from Newgate, besides two that were not called. Of which ten, one was a citizen of London, who submitted to them, and nine refused: they all came to prison again, and refused the cardinal's blessing, and the authority of his church, except that one of the nine was not asked the question, otherwise than, "Whether he would be an honest man as his father was before him," and he answering, "Yea," he was discharged. He bade me tell him what I would do; whether I would enter into the one church with the whole realm or not? "No," said I, "I will first see it proved by the scriptures. Let me have pen, ink, and books, &c., and I shall take upon me plainly to set out the matter, so that the contrary shall be proved to be true, and let any man that chooses confer with me by writing."

Ld. Chan." Nay that shall not be permitted thee. Thou shalt never have so much offered thee as thou hast now, if thou refuse it, and will not now yield and agree to the catholic church. Here are two things, mercy and justice: if thou refuse the queen's mercy now, then shalt thou have justice administered to thee."

Rogers." I never offended, nor was disobedient to her grace, and yet I will not refuse her mercy. But if it shall be denied me to argue by writing, and to search out the truth, then it is not well, but too far out of the way. You yourselves (all the bishops of the realm) brought me to the knowledge of the pretended primacy of the bishop of Rome, when I was a young man twenty years past and will you now without confidence have me to say and do the contrary? I cannot be so persuaded."

Ld. Chan." If thou wilt not receive the bishop of Rome to be supreme head of the catholic church, then thou shalt never have her mercy, thou mayst be sure of that. And as touching conference and examination, I am forbidden by the scriptures to use any conference and examination with thee. For St. Paul teaches me, that I should shun and eschew a heretic after one or two admonitions, knowing that such a one is perverted and faulty, as he is condemned by his own judgment."

Rogers." My lord, I deny that I am a heretic; prove you that first, and then allege the text."

Ld. Chan.-"If thou wilt enter into one church with us, &c., tell us so, or else thou shalt never have so much offered thee again as thou hast now."

Rogers." I will find it first in the scripture, and see it tried by that, before I receive him to be supreme

head."

Worcester." Why? Do you not know what is in your creed, 'I believe in the holy catholic church?" "

Rogers." I find not the bishop of Rome there. For catholic signifies not Romish church: it signifies the consent of all true teaching churches of all times and all ages. But how should the bishop of Rome's church be one of them, who teaches so many doctrines that are plainly and directly against the word of God? Can that bishop be the true head of the catholic church that does so? that is not possible."

Ld. Chan. Shew me one,-let me hear one." Rogers." Among so many I can easily shew you

one."

Ld. Chan.-" Nay, I will prove, then, that he speaks neither to God nor to man, but to the wind."

I was willing to have declared how these two texts agreed, (for they must agree, both being the sayings of the Holy Ghost,) as, to speak not to men, but to God, and to speak to the wind: and so to have gone forward with the proof of my matter; but here arose a noise and confusion.

Ld. Chan." To speak unto God, and not unto God, is impossible."

Rogers." I will prove them possible."

"No," said my lord William Howard to my lord chancellor; "now I will bear you witness that he is out of the way for he granted first, that they who speak in a strange tongue speak unto God; and now he saith the contrary, that they speak neither to God nor to man." Rogers." I have not granted nor said," turning me to my lord Howard, "as you report. I have alleged one text, and now I am come to the other. They must agree, and I can make them agree. But as for you, you understand not the matter. Ld. Howard.“ I understand thus much, that that is not possible."

"This is a point of sophistry," said Secretary Bourne. Then the lord chancellor began to tell the lord Howard, that when he was in High Dutchland, they at Halle, who had before prayed and used their service all in Dutch, began then to turn part into Latin, and part into Dutch.

Worcester." Yea, and at Wittenberg too." Rogers." Yea," (but I could not be heard for the noise) "in a university, where men for the most part understand the Latin, and yet not all in Latin." And I would have told the order, and have gone forward both to have answered my lord, and to have proved the thing that I had taken in hand: but perceiving their talk and noise to be too great, I was fain to think this in my heart, suffering them in the meanwhile to talk one of them one thing, and another another. Alas! neither will these men hear me if I speak, nor yet will they suffer me to write. There is no remedy, but let them alone, and commit the matter to God. Yet I began to go forward, and said, that I would make the texts agree, and prove my purpose well enough.

Ld. Chan.-" No, no, thou canst prove nothing by the scripture. The scripture is dead: it must have a lively expositor."

Rogers." No, the scripture is alive. But let me go forward with my purpose."

Worcester." All heretics have alleged the scriptures for them, and therefore we must have a lively expositor for them."

Rogers." Yea, all heretics have alleged the scriptures for them but they were confuted by the scriptures, and by no other expositor."

:

Worcester," But they would not confess that they were overcome by the scriptures, I am sure of that."

:

Rogers." I believe that: and yet they were overcome by them, and in all councils they were disputed with and overthrown by the scriptures." And here I would have declared how they ought to proceed in these days, and so have come again to my purpose, but it was impossible for one asked one thing, another said another, so that I was fain to hold my peace, and let them talk. And even when I would have taken hold on my proof, the lord chancellor remanded me to prison again; and "Away, away," said he, "we have more to talk with if you will not be reformed," (so he termed it,) "away, away!" Then up I stood, for I had kneeled all the while.

:

ing, "That she took them that would not receive the bishop of Rome's supremacy, to be unworthy to have her mercy," &c.

I said I would not refuse her mercy, and that I had never offended her in all my life: and that I now besought her grace, and all their honours, to be good to me, reserving my conscience.

Divers spoke at once. "No," cried they; and especially Secretary Bourne; "A married priest! and yet have not offended the law!"

I said I had not broken the queen's law, nor yet the law of the realm: for that I married when it was lawful. Divers at once cried, 66 Where was that?" thinking that it was unlawful in all places.

Rogers. "In Holland: and if you had not in England made a public law that priests might have wives, I never would have come home again; for I brought a wife and eight children with me: which you might be sure I would not have done, if the laws of the realm had not permitted it."

Then there was a great noise, some saying that I was come too soon: I should find a sad coming of it; and some said one thing, and some another. One said that there never was a catholic man or country that allowed a priest to have a wife.

I said, "The catholic church never denied marriage to priests, nor yet to any other man." This I said as I was going out of the chamber, along with the sergeant who brought me there.

The bishop of Worcester turned his face towards me, and said that he did not know where that church was or is. I said, "Yes, I could tell where it was,"-but the ser. geant took me out at the door.

This was the purport of all that was spoken to me, and all that I answered.

And here would I gladly make a more perfect answer to all the objections, as also a full proof of what I had taken in hand: but I was informed that I should tomorrow come to further answer. Wherefore I am compelled to leave out that which I would most gladly have done, desiring the hearty and unfeigned help of the prayers of all Christ's true members, the true children of the true unfeigned catholic church, that the Lord God of all consolation may now be my comfort, aid, strength, buckler, and shield: as also of all my brethren that are in the same distress, that I and they all may despise all manner of threats and cruelty, and even the bitter burning fire, and the dreadful dart of death, and stick like true soldiers to our dear and loving Captain, Christ, our only Redeemer and Saviour, and the only true head of the church, who worketh all in us all, which is the very property of a head, (and is a thing that all the bishops of Rome cannot do,) and that we do not traitorously run out of his tents, or out of the plain field from him, in the jeopardy of the battle, but that we may persevere in the fight, (if he will not otherwise deliver us,) till we are most cruelly slain by his enemies. For this I most heartily, and at this present, with weeping tears most instantly and earnestly desire and beseech you all to pray and also if I die, to be good to my poor and most honest wife, being a poor stranger, and all my little souls, hers and my children. Whom, with all the whole faithful and true catholic congregation of Christ, the Lord of life and death save, keep, and defend in all the troubles and assaults of this vain world, and bring at the last to everlasting salvation on the true and sure inheritance of all crossed christians. Amen, amen. "The 27th day of January at night."

The Second Confession of John Rogers. First I was asked again by the lord chancellor, whether I would come into one church along with the bishops and the whole realm, as was now converted to the catholic church of Rome, and confirmed by parliament, and so receive the mercy before proferred to me, arising again with the whole realm out of the schism and error in which we had long been, with recantation of my errors, &c., I answered, that pre

On the third day, which was the 29th of January, we were sent for in the morning about nine o'clock, and by the sheriffs fetched from the Compter in Southwark to the church again, where we were the day before. And when Master Hooper was condemned, as I understood afterward, then they sent for me. Then my lord chancellor said unto me :

"Rogers, here thou wast yesterday, and we gave thee then a night to remember thyself, whether thou wouldst come to the holy catholic church of Christ again or not. Tell us now what thou hast determined, whether thou wilt be repentant and sorry, and wilt return again and take mercy."

" My lord," said I, "I have considered right well, what you yesterday said to me, and I desire you to give me leave to declare my mind, what I have to say thereto; and that done, I shall answer to your demanded questions.

"When I yesterday desired that I might be suffered by the scriptures and the authority of the first, best, and purest church to defend my doctrine by writing," (meaning not only about the primacy, but also about all the doctrine that I had ever preached) "you answered me, that it might not, nor ought not to be granted to me, for I was a private person; and that the parliament was above the authority of all private persons, and therefore the sentence might not be found faulty and valueless, by me being but a private person. And yet my lord," continued I, "I am able to shew examples, that one man has come into a general council, and after the whole had determined and agreed upon an act or article, some man coming in afterwards, has by the word of God declared so pithily that the council had erred in decreeing the said article, that he caused the whole council to change and alter their act or article before determined. And of these examples," said I, "I am able to shew two. I can also shew the authority of St. Augustine; that when he disputed with an heretic, he would neither himself, nor yet have the heretic to lean to the determination of two former councils, of which the one made for him, and the other for the heretic that disputed against him: but said that he would have the scriptures to be their judge, which were common and indifferent for them both, and not proper to either of them.

"I could shew, also," said I, "the authority of a learned lawyer Panormitan, who saith, that to a simple layman that brings the word of God with him, there ought more credit to be given, than to a whole council gathered together. By these things I will prove that I ought not to be denied to say my mind, and to be heard against a whole parliament, bringing the word of God for me, and the authority of the old church four hundred years after Christ, although every man in the parliament had willingly and without respect of fear and favour agreed thereto, which I doubt not a little of; especially seeing the like had been permitted in the old church, even in general councils, yea, and that in one of the chiefest councils that ever was, to which neither any acts

of this parliament, nor yet any of the late general councils of the bishops of Rome ought to be compared. For," said I, "if Henry the Eighth were alive, and should call a parliament, and begin to determine a thing" (and here I would have alleged the example of the act of making the queen a bastard, and of making himself the superior head; but I could not, being interrupted by one, whom God forgive) "then will ye," (pointing to my lord chancellor,) and ye, and ye, and so ye all," (pointing to the rest of the bishops) "say, Amen."

Here my lord chancellor would not suffer me to speak more; but bade me sit down mockingly, saying, "that I was sent for to be instructed by them, and I would take upon me to be their instructor."

My lord," cried I, "I stand, and sit not. Shall I not be suffered to speak for my life?"

me,

"Shall we suffer thee to tell a tale, and to prate?" said he. And with that he stood up, and began to face after his old arrogant proud fashion, for he perceived that I was in a way to have touched them somewhat, which he thought to hinder by dashing me out of my argument, and so he did. For I could never be suffered to come to my vindication again, no not one word of it; but he had much like communication with me, as he had the day before, and as his manner is, with taunt upon taunt, and check upon check. For in that case, being God's cause, I told him he should not make me afraid to speak.

Lord Chancellor. - -"See what a spirit this fellow hath," said he, "finding fault at my accustomed earnestness, and hearty manner of speaking."

Rogers." I have a true spirit," replied I, "agreeing and obeying the word of God," and would further have said, that I was never the worse, but the better, to be earnest in a just and true cause, and in my Master, Christ's matters; but I could not be heard. And at the length he proceeded towards the excommunication and condemnation, after I had told him that his church of Rome was the church of antichrist, meaning the false doctrine and tyrannical laws, with the maintenance of them by cruel persecutions used by the bishops of the church (of which the bishop of Winchester and the rest of his fellow bishops, now in England, are the chief members.) "Of laws I mean," said I, "and not all men and women who are in the pope's church." Likewise when I was said to have denied their sacrament (whereof which he made his wonted reverent mention, more to maintain his kingdom, than for true reverence of Christ's institution,-more for his own and his popish generation's sake, than for religion or God's sake) I told him after what order I did speak of it, (for the manner of his speaking did not apply to my words, which are before recited in the communication that we had on the 28th of January,) wherewith he was not contented, but he asked the audience whether I had not simply denied the sacrament. They would have said, and did, what he chose, for the most of them were his own servants on that day, the 29th of January I mean. At last I said, "I will never deny what I said—that is, that your doctrine of the sacrament is false; but yet I tell you after what order I said it."

To be short, he read my condemnation before me, particularly mentioning therein only two articles; first, that I affirmed the Romish catholic church to be the church of antichrist; and that I denied the reality of their sacrament. He caused me to be degraded and condemned, and put into the hands of the laity; and so gave me over into the sheriff's hands, which were much better than his.

The Sentence condemnatory against John Rogers.

"In the name of God, Amen. We Stephen by the permission of God bishop of Winchester, lawfully and rightly proceeding with all godly favour by authority and virtue of our office, against thee, John Rogers priest, alias called Matthew, before us personally here present, being accused and detected, and notoriously slandered of heresy, having heard, seen, and understood, and with all diligent deliberation weighed, discussed, and considered

the merits of the cause, all things observed, which by us in this behalf in order of law ought to be observed, sitting in our judgment-seat, the name of Christ being first called upon, and having only God before our eyes, because by the acts enacted, propounded, and exhibited in this matter, and by thine own confession judicially made before us, we do find that thou hast taught, holden, and affirmed, and obstinately defended divers errors, heresies, and damnable opinions, contrary to the doctrine and determination of the holy church, as namely these : That the catholic church of Rome is the church of antichrist also, that in the sacrament of the altar there is not substantially nor really the natural body and blood of Christ. Which aforesaid heresies and damnable opinions being contrary to the law of God, and determination of the universal and apostolical church, thou hast arrogantly, stubbornly, and wittingly maintained, held, and affirmed, and also defended before us, as well in this judgment, as also otherwise, and with the like obstinacy, stubbornness, malice and blindness of heart, both wittingly and willingly hast affirmed, that thou wilt believe, maintain, and hold, affirm and declare the same. We therefore Stephen Winchester, bishop, ordinary, and diocesan aforesaid, by the consent and assent, as well of our reverend brethren the lord bishops here present and assistant, as also by the counsel and judgment of divers worshipful lawyers and professors of divinity, with whom we have communicated in this behalf, do declare and pronounce thee, the said John Rogers, otherwise called Matthew, through thy demerits, transgressions, obstinacies, and wilfulness (which through manifold ways thou hast incurred by thine own wicked and stubborn obstinacy) to have been and to be guilty of the detestable, horrible, and wicked offences of heretical pravity, and execrable doctrine; and that thou hast before us sundry times spoken, maintained, and wittingly and stubbornly defended the said cursed and execrable doctrine in the sundry confessions, assertions, and recognitions here judicially before us oftentimes repeated, and yet still dost maintain, affirm, and believe the same, and that thou hast been and art lawfully and ordinarily convicted in this behalf. We therefore, I say, albeit following the example of Christ, who desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he should be converted and live; we have gone about oftentimes to correct thee, and by all lawful means that we could, and by all wholesome admonitions that we did know, to reduce thee again unto the true faith and unity of the universal catholic church, notwithstanding we have found thee obstinate and stiff-necked, willingly continuing in thy damnable opinions and heresies, and refusing to return again unto the true faith and unity of the holy mother church, and as the child of wickedness and darkness so to have hardened thy heart, that thou wilt not understand the voice of thy shepherd, which with a fatherly affection doth seek after thee, nor wilt be allured with his fatherly and godly admonitions: we, therefore, Stephen the bishop aforesaid, not willing that thou who art wicked should now become more wicked, and infect the Lord's flock with thine heresy, which we are greatly afraid of, with sorrow of mind and bitterness of heart do judge thee, and definitively condemn thee, the said John Rogers, otherwise called Matthew, thy demerits and faults being aggravated through thy damnable obstinacy, as guilty of most detestable heresies, and as an obstinate impenitent sinner, refusing penitently to return to the lap and unity of the holy mother church, and that thou hast been and art by law excommunicated, and we do pronounce and declare thee to be an excommunicate person. Also we pronounce and declare thee, being an heretic, to be cast out from the church, and left unto the judgment of the secular power, and now presently so do leave thee as an obstinate heretic, and a person wrapped in the sentence of the great curse, to be degraded worthily for thy demerits (requiring them, notwithstanding, in the bowels of our Lord Jesus Christ, that this execution and punishment worthily to be done upon thee, may so be moderated, that the rigour thereof be not too extreme, nor yet the gentleness too much mitigated, but that it be to the salvation of thy soul, to the extirpation, terror,

and conversion of the heretics, to the unity of the catholic faith,) by this our sentence definitive which we here lay upon and against thee, and do with sorrow of heart promulgate in this form aforesaid."

After this sentence had been read, he sent us (Master Hooper I mean, and me) to the Clink, there to remain till night and when it was dark, they carried us, Master Hooper going before with one sheriff, and I following with the other, with bills and weapons, and led us through the bishop's house, and so through St. Mary Overy's church-yard, into Southwark, and over the bridge in procession to Newgate through the city. But I must shew you this also, that when he had read the condemnation, he declared that I was in the great curse, and that it was a dangerous matter to eat and drink with us that were accursed, or to give us any thing; for all that did so, should be partakers of the same great curse.

"Well, my lord," said I, "here I stand before God and you, and all this honourable audience, I take him to witness, that I never wittingly or willingly taught any false doctrine; and therefore have I a good conscience before God and all good men. I am sure that you and I shall come before a judge that is righteous, before whom I shall be as good a man as you: and I nothing doubt but that I shall be found there a true member of the true catholic church of Christ, and everlastingly saved. And as for your false church, you need not to excommunicate me from it. I have not been in it these twenty years, the Lord be thanked there for. But Dow you have done what you can, my lord, I pray you yet grant me one thing.'

"What is that?" asked he.

"That my poor wife, being a stranger, may come and speak with me so long as I live. For she hath ten children that are hers and mine, and I would somewhat counsel her, what were best for her to do."

"No," said he, "she is not thy wife."

"Yes, my lord," rejoined I, "and has been these eighteen years."

"Should I grant her to be thy wife?" asked he. "Choose you," said I, "whether you will or not, she shall be so nevertheless."

"She shall not come at thee," said he.

"Then I have tried out all your charity," said I. "You make yourself highly displeased with the matrimony of priests, but you maintain open concubinage: as in Wales, where every priest has his concubine openly dwelling with him, even as your holy father suffers all the priests in Holland and in France to do the like." To this he answered not, but looked as it were asquint at it and thus I departed, and saw him for the last time.

After John Rogers had been long imprisoned, lodged in Newgate among thieves, often examined, and very uncharitably treated, and at length unjustly and most cruelly condemned by wicked Winchester, on the fourth of February, in the year 1555, being Monday, in the morning, he was warned suddenly, by the keeper's wife of Newgate, to prepare himself for the fire: being then sound asleep, he could scarcely be awaked. At length being awaked, and bid to make haste, "then," said he, "if it be so, I need not tie my points ;" and so was taken first to Bonner to be degraded. That done, he craved of Bonner one petition. And Bonner asking what that should be, "Nothing," said he, " but that he might talk a few words with his wife before his burn. ing." But that could not be obtained of him! Now when the time came, that he, having been delivered to the sheriffs, was brought out of Newgate to Smithfield, the place of his execution, Master Woodroofe, one of the sheriffs, calling Master Rogers to him, asked him if he would revoke his abominable doctrine, and his evil opinion of the sacrament of the altar. Master Rogers answered and said, "That which I have preached I will seal with my blood." Then," said Master Woodroofe, "thou art an heretic." "That shall be known," replied Rogers, "at the day of judgment." "Well," said Master Woodroofe, "I will never pray for thee." “But I will pray for you," rejoined Rogers; and so was brought on Monday, the fourth of February, by

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