HOUSE OF LORDS. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 28. 301 Counsel were heard in continuation on the crofs appeal, Abercromby v. Fleming. After which, their Lordships adjourned the further confideration of the cafe till Friday fe'nnight. The St. Pancras work houfe bill, and an inclofure bill, were brought up from the Commons, and feverally read a first time. IRISH MILITIA. Lord Hawkesbury having moved the order of the day, for taking his Majefty's meffage into confideration, the fame, together with his Majefty's meffage, were read. The noble Secretary then obferved, that with respect to the address, he fhould have the honour to propose to his Majefty, on the occafion of his meffage, he hoped it would, when the importance and favourable nature of the fubject were confidered, meet the unanimous concurrence of their Lordships; the more fo, as in the addrefs there would be nothing tending to pledge the Houfe to the adoption of any specific meafure, but merely general expreflions of their willingness to concur In enabling his Majefty to take advantage of the offers made by feveral régiments of the Irish militia. Here his Lordship faid, he could not avoid offering his tribute of applause, to the ardent zeal and patriotifm, which dictated thefe offers of extended fervice. The voluntary coming forward of these troops in fo laudable and patriotic a manner, was following up the auspicious measure of the Union, in a most important and ftriking inftance; and tending to identify the interefts, the happiness, and the prosperity of both parts of the united kingdom. It was then unneceffary to take up their Lordships' time with any detailed obfervations on the subject, as it would afterwards come under their confideration in a regular shape, farther than to obferve, that one important object to be attained by it, was the increasing the difpofeable force of this country. His Lordship concluded by propofing an addrefs, correfponding, as ufual, with the prominent features of the meffage. After the addrefs had been read from the woolfack, The Duke of Montrofe expreffed his readinefs to concur with the noble Secretary of State in his eulogium upon the zeal and patriotifm of the troops who had come forward in the adverted to in his Majefty's meffage. He was happy in fuch way an an acceffion of force in the prefent circumftances of the country, and should concur in the propofed addrefs. At the fame time he would beg leave to offer a few observations upon points connected with the fubject, which was of peculiar importance. And firft he would obferve upon the injurious tendency of armed bodies of men being fuffered to deliberate, and in that point of view he had to regret that the offer proceeded from the troops; he had rather fuch extenfion of fervice were in confequence of a preferibed duty on the part of Government and the Legiflature; that which was performed by perfons fo circumftanced, as a duty, would be well executed; but when they confidered it as their doing fomething more than their duty the chance of its being well performed was the lefs. (Hear! Hear!) He thought it would be preferable in his Majesty's Government, on fuch an occafion as the prefent, to come forward in a manly way, and at once propofe legislative measures to render reciprocal the militia fervices of both countries: this would be furthering the happy effects of the union, on the interefts, the happinefs, and the fecurity of all parts of the united kingdom. Regulations of this kind were become the more necellary as the relative fituation of thofe countries, more especially with regard to continental confiderations, and the aggrandizement of France, was of late confiderably changed. It would be neceffary that this country thould become a much more military nation than it had been for many years past, and in this necessary change, he thought that the nobility and gentry of the united, kingdom fhould take the lead; they thould inure themselves to military habits. He was aware that the extension of the. fervices of the British militia to Ireland, would be rather unpalatable to many of its officers; to fome, who on account of age, or feelings of difinclination, may not with to ferve out of England; and that the unavoidable confequences of such would be feveral refignations. This, in fome points of view was to be regretted; but when put in competition with the advantages which would arife in confequence of the extenfion of fervice, the ill effect would comparatively be but little; added to this, it would afford an opportunity to the introduction of young officers, even to the higher ranks of the militia fe vice, which he thought would be preferable to having thefe corps officered by old men. The experience of hiftory demontrated that victories in general were atchieved by young commanders; for instance, the cafes of the wars carried on by the old king of Pruña, and his fucceffor, the Great Frederick, Frederick, who was very young when he commenced his military career; and the repeated victories which the French. gained over the Austrian forces in the late war, were principally owing to the exertions of their young officers. Young commanders might commit errors, but they generally retrieved them by achieving victory: whereas, old men generally let the occafion go by, while their endeavours were directed to avoid the commiflion of mistakes. Recurring to the fubject immediately before the Houfe, his Grace repeated his opinion, that it would be preferable to come forward on fuch an occafion as the prefent, manfully, with an act for rendering the fervices of the militias of both countries reciprocal. The Marquis of Sligo faid, from the general approbation which the measure refulting from the meffage from the Crown had received from all fides of the Houfe, he should not have judged it neceffary to trouble their Lordships with one word on its fubject, if it had not been for fomething which had fallen from a noble Duke, by which he seemed to confider, that if the services of the Irish militia were neceffaty in this country, it would be more advifeable and more manly to obtain them by an act of the Parliament of the united kingdom, than by the acceptance of their proffered fervices. His Lordship faid, the Irish militia had been enlisted explicitly for ferving in Ireland only, and, therefore, however wife the principle fuggefted by the noble Duke, it could not be acted upon at the prefent. To comply with that advice, the first step must be to difcharge every one of thofe patriots, who had now voluntarily tendered their fervices, and enlift them again on the terms of extended fervice. Lord Sligo faid, that every measure tending to cement the union of Great Britain with Ireland, ever had had, and ever fhould have his warmest concurrence. Every thing that affimilated them to each other, every thing that made them one, every thing that created in them one intereft and one feeling, added to the happiness, the ftrength and fecurity of the empire; and if the period fhould happily arrive, when a population of near twenty millions fhould be brought to act under one mind and one feeling, they had little to fear from their enemies, though the world were united against them. The Earl of Limerick obferved, that he fhould have contented himself with a filent vote on the prefent occafion, were it not for one point in the fpeech of the noble Duke. The conduct of the Irish militia was on this occasion above all panegyric; he would leave it to other noble Lords to attempt it. What had had been stated by the noble Marquis, refpecting the Irish militia being enlifted for the limited fervice of their own country, was true; and with respect to the noble Duke's idea of coming manfully forward, with a legiflative provifion on the fubject, it might be manly and courageous, but certainly, under the circumstances of the cafe, it would be dangerous. He was adverse to the experiment of legiflating for men fo circumftanced as were the troops in question, with arms in their hands. At the fame time no man could more earnestly with for a reciprocity of the militia fervice than himself, and he had always held out the idea as tending to confolidate the military force of the united kingdom, and render it the more fecure: but under the circumstances of the cafe, this could not be effected, as far as the Irifh militia was concerned, by legislative provisions in the first instance. Lord Grenville was folicitous to contribute his share of applause to the ardent zeal and patriotifm of thofe troops who had fo laudably come forward, and he agreed with the noble Marquis in what he had ftated as the probable result of the union between the two countries. It was the object of that great measure to identify the interests of Great Britain and Ireland, and to promote the happiness and fecurity of both; to bring them not only under one Legiflature, and fyftem of laws, but that the fpirit of Government in both countries fhould be precifely the fame. As far as these principles were acted upon, fo far were the objects of the union attained. He was aware of the terms upon which the Irish militia were raised-not by means of ballot, as in this country, but by means of bounty, on enlifting the men. It would certainly have been preferable that the defired arrangement had been the refult of legiflative provifions, and not, as in the prefent inftance, proceeding from the voluntaay offers of the corps themfelves. At the time the bill by which the Irish militia were raised was under difcuffion, it was earneftly recommended to Minifters, that the militia fo raifed by bounty, fhould be enlifted for the fervice of the united kingdom. That advice was then rejected, and in confequence, they were placed in the prefent predicament. His Lordship faid, it was by no means his intention to oppofe the motion. Lord Hobart highly commended the fpirited and patriotic offer of the Iith militia; fuch, he was fenfible, would always be the conduct of the people of that country, when not misled by the intrigues of their enemies. The queftion was not now whether it would have been better to raise fencible or militia militia regiments in Ireland. As it had been determined to raife a militia, let that force only be raised on the usual condition of ferving in the country. Since an engagement to that effect had been entered into, it was above all things neceffary that the public faith should not be violated. With regard to the advice which the noble Lord faid had been given to his Majesty's Minifters, he declared that for his part he had no recollection of having ever heard of it before. Lord Darnley was of opinion, that the principle laid down by the noble Lord, that a militia force must be raised on the ufual principle of not ferving out of the country, was appli cable to the state of Ireland before the union, but not to its ftate now. He thought that the militia of both England and Ireland fhould be liable to ferve in either country. He did not underftand how the offer of the Irish militia could be faid to augment the difpofeable force of this country. Lard Grenville remarked that the meffage did not express what part of the Irish militia had offered to ferve in this country. He hoped that the offers were not made by individuals, but by complete regiments. Lord Hawkesbury answered, that, as far as his recollection ferved him, the offers came from regiments. The Marquis of Sligo faid, that the meffage from the Throne did not do entire juftice to the zeal and patriotifm of the Irith militia; that though it implied that offers of fervice had been fent from a part, he believed the entire of the militia had offered to volunteer to this country, and was perfuaded they would do fo if they had conceived their fervices would have been accepted; that many or most part of them had made the fame tender during the last war. The addrefs was then voted nem. dif. and ordered to be prefented to his Majefty in the ufual manner. The bill for regulating the admiffion into priests' and deacons' orders was read a fecond time, and committed for Friday fe'nnight, Lord Ellenborough obferving, that in the Committee he thould move, that the bill fhould not go to affect the rights of the Archbishop of Canterbury or the Primate of Ireland. Adjourned to Thursday fe'nnight. HOUSE OF COMMONS. WEDNESDAY, MARCH 28. A new writ was ordered for Knaresborough, in the room of James Hare, Efq. deceased. VOL. II. 1803-4. Rr A meffage |