HOUSE OF LORDS.

FRIDAY, MARCH 23.

The Royal affent was given by commiffion to feventcen public and private bills: among the former were the Exchequer bills bill, the Irifh revenue, the Irish countervailing duties, the Irish malt duty, the hides and tallow importation, the fugar warehousing, the neutral fhips, and the rape feed oil importation bills; and among the latter, Boydell's picture lottery, the Rochdale canal fubfcription, and three naturalization bills. The Lords Commiflioners were the Lord Chancellor, Lord Hawkesbury, and Lord Walfingham.

Lord Ashburton was fworn and took his feat on attaining his majority.

Counfel were heard in continuation, relative to the Scotch appeal, Fleming v. Abercromby. To proceed again on Monday.

VOLUNTEER REGULATIONS BILL.

The volunteer regulation bill was brought up from the Commons by Mr. Tierney, accompanied by a few Mem

bers.

Lord Hawkesbury moved the fift reading of the bill; accordingly the title and breviate of the bill were read by the Lord Chancellor.

The noble Secretary then moved, that the bill be printed for the ufe of their Lordfhips. He obferved, at the fame time, that the forms of the Houfe did not allow the fecond reading of a bill to be regularly moved, until the prints were before the Houfe. However, as there was every probability that the prints would be ready for delivery the next day, he fhould now give notice, that on Monday it was his intention to move for the fecond reading of the bill.

Earl Spencer rofe, not, he faid, for the purpose of oppofing the measure, or to throw any difficulties in the way of his Majefty's Government in the prefent circumftances, but merely to fuggeft to Minifters and to the Houfe the confideration, whether a bill of the peculiar nature and importance of that, the heads of which had juft been read, a measure, the principle of which was not only fo very im portant, but in itself embracing fuch a variety of detailed provifions, could be maturely confidered, fo far as to make up their Lordships minds as to that fpecies of difcuffion requir

cd

ed at a fecond reading, in the very fhort interval between the delivery of the bill and Monday next: he thought it could not. He deprecated the idea of any improper hafte being used in the progrefs of the bill in that Houfe. Their Lordships would recollect the extraordinary length of time it was under confideration in another place, the repeated difcuifiers the measure had undergone, and the variety of amendments which had been made in it. It was therefore incumbent on their Lordships to give the measure a full and mature confideration in all its branches and details: in the prefent circumstances, it was one of the greatest importance: the character and dignity of the Houfe were implicated in the confideration, they thould evince to the public their determination to give the meature a full investigation, and that no improper hafte fhould be used on the part of their Lordships in paffing the bill. Under thefe impreffions he begged leave to fuggeft to the noble Secretary, that Tuesday fhould be the earliest day fixed on for the fecond reading.

Lord Hawkesbury obferved, that it was by no means the with of his Majesty's Minifters to use any improper hafte in the progrefs of the bill; on the contrary, it was their wish that the meafure fhould undergo a full and thorough inveftigation. At the fame time he could not help observing to the noble Earl, that the detailed and repeated difcuffions the bill had already received, rendered its contents pretty well known to the public, and perhaps to a great number of their Lordships; however, though his wish was, that a measure of fuch peculiar importance in the prefent circumftances of the country, fhould receive as little delay as poffible, after what had been fuggefted, he had no objection to take Tuesday as the day for moving the fecond reading.

Earl Fitzwilliam fpoke in fupport of what fell from the noble Earl near him (Spencer); he urged the propriety of giving the bill a full and mature confideration in that Houfe. He adverted to the deliberate difcuffions it had undergone in the other Houfe of Parliament, and the many alterations and amendments it had been found neceffary to make in the measure as originally propofed to that House.

The Earl of Darnley expreffed his coincidence in a great deal of what fell from the noble Earls at his fide of the House; but at the fame time he must avow his opinion, that in the prefent circumstances of the country, the bill fhould be delayed as little as poffible in its progrefs. No Lord could

more

more highly estimate the character and dignity of that House than himself: but there were certain regulations in the bill which it would be expedient to carry into effect as soon as poffible. He was however an advocate for a full and thorough difcuffion of the meature; on that ground he had no objection to the propofed delay; but if he thought there was a probability of their Lordthips being able adequately to discuss the measure previous to the intended recefs, he thould have no objection to the day firft named by the noble Secretary of State.

Lord Hawkesbury, in explanation, affured the noble Lords there was no intention on the part of Minifters to hurry the progress of the meature. He was equally aware of the various and complicated nature of the measure, as of its peculiar importance; it certainly embraced many detailed confiderations, each of which involved a principle in itfelf: it was then right that the whole fhould be fully and maturely confidered, and if fuch could not be done previous to the recefs, they had no particular defire to urge its paffing before that period.

Lord Harrowly made a variety of obfervations, not only on the bill itself, but on a great part of the conduct of his Majefty's Minifters relative thereto. In one point of view, it was his wifh that the bill fhould receive the fanction of the Legislature as ípeedily as poflible, as it contained, in particular, one provifion of which he approved, namely, that which held out a bounty for the encouragement of volunteers so perfect themfelves in military discipline and exercife. This part of the bill, when he confidered the critical circumftances, with refpect to pending invafion, in order to be of real fervice, fhould be carried into effect as fpeedily as poffible, for on a thort approaching interval much may depend. The noble Lord then adverted to the delays which he conceived Ministers had fuffered to take place with refpect to the meafure in queftion, and cenfured their conduct on that head. Much time had been loft. This was the only meafure they brought forward for the defence of the country, and as little time thould be loft as poffible. He deprecated the idea of lefing any time in confideration of a recefs; but if fuch a proceeding was refolved upon, he hoped it would be for the thorteft period poffible, not extending beyond the Monday which would follow the fecond reading of the

bill.

His Lordship then alluded to fome parts of the bill, which, from their queftionable nature, as well as on account of

the

the conduct of Minifters in thefe refpects, he deemed to require nature confideration and thorough investigation on the part of their Lord@hips.

The Earl of Carnarvon said, that the conversation was perfectly irregular, and that the arguments used were still more so, as they were in exprefs breach of one of the standing orders of the House, even if the fubject was before them. It is a standi g order, faid his Lordship, that it shall never be urged as an argument against the full confideration of any fubject that the preffure of time called for a fpeedy decifion. If there is any danger in the interval required for mature deliberation of this measure, it is imputable to the negligence of Administration, who have fuffered fo long a space to lapfe between their declaration that war was inevitable, and the produc tion of any new fyftem which they might think neceffary for the defence of the country: but no preffure of time can make it fit that any measure thould be paffed without due deliberation: no precipitation, can be admitted which may give fanction to an inadequate, if not a dangerous fyftem. The careleffnefs and precipitation with which important bills have been paffed, is fufficiently proved by the repeated neceffity of correcting their errors. In the last feffion one of the most important bills has paffed connected with the prefent; it paffed in a thin House in two days, without obfervation, and was in the fame feffion amended, and both the amended and amending bill again reamended in the fame feffion, and with the fame hurry as if it was not fit to be feen, or could fupport difcuffion; and it ftill requires another amendment, if not a total repeal. Without any reafon, and without deliberate examination, it afferts a prerogative in the Crown, which no reading in history or law ever gave me the flighteft fufpicion of; nor have I met with any perfon who can detail the proofs of fuch prerogative having ever been afferted but in this act. Whether the prefent measure fufpends, repeals, or confirms this act I know not. The noble Secretary fays, that the fubject has been fo long in every man's mind that he must be easily prepared for the difenffion. I do not know the contents of the bill; I have not even read it fince its laft recommitment, fince which many alterations have been made; and I am only fure that it must be connected with a bill which requires great attention, I mean the defence bill, before it can be fit to graft any other upon it. I trust, therefore, that no hurry in paffing this bill is intended: Tuesday is too short a time to conVOL. II. 1803-4.

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fider

fider a bill whofe print will not be delivered till to-morrow evening, and which arifes out of and refts on the foundation of other bills which require themselves a concurrent examination.

The Lord Chancellor quitted the woolfack, and delivered his fentiments upon the occafion. He adverted to the irregular turn which the debate had taken, but which to observe upon, as he then felt it proper, he must neceffarily fall into the fame irregularity himself. The queftion he conceived was, whether the bill thould be read a fecond time on Tuefday; and in confidering this, the noble and learned Lord commented on what had fallen from a noble Earl then near him, and from a noble Lord who had fpoken at the oppofite fide of the House: the inconfiftency of whofe arguments, as operating either in favour of delay or, on the contrary, for expedition were remarked upon by his Lordship. With his noble Friend he agreed in the propriety of maturely and deliberately confidering the measure before them; it was irregular in point of form, as well as an erroneous way of confidering the cafe, to go upon an affumption of what the House in its wifdom may refolve upon with refpect to the enfuing period of recefs. He feemed to think the latter day mentioned, the preferable of the two, as, in common with several of their Lordships, he knew but very little of the detailed provifions of the bill, fave from that defcription of them which his duty, on the occafion of the firft reading of the bill, rendered it neceffary he should read to the House; and he was fully convinced of the propriety of duly and thoroughly dif cuffing the mcafure in question.

The Earl of Darnley fpoke in explanation, and Lord Minto feemed inclined to fpeak, when

Lord Walfingham deemed it incumbent on him to remind their Lordships of the obvious irregularity of the prefent difcuffion. There was, ftrictly speaking, no question before the Houfe, as in point of form, the fecond reading of the bill could not regularly be moved for, until the prints were before their Lordships.

The correctnefs of this remark was with great good humour acknowledged by the Lord Chancellor, and

Lord Hawkesbury, in the courfe of a thort explanation as to the point of form, reminded their Lordships, that what the noble Lord had obferved, had been conceived by him in the first instance. He then obferved that it was his intention to move for the fecond reading of the bill on Tuesday.

The