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320 CONG....3d Sess.
Special Session— Extra Compensation.
ing the custom-houses to keep within the amount seen before this body. I have studiously resisted | ate, and the impropriety, without notice, of deprivif they can, for they will have a hard fight to get the payment at every session since I have been a ing the officers of the compensation to which from any more dollars out of the Treasury in that way. member of the body. The system commenced in our previous action they might look, which inBut this question is now up, and the action of the the first place by giving to the clerks $100 each, I duced me at that session to vote for the compenSenate is to be had, and I do believe that the precise | believe, and to the other officers of the body $50. 1 sation. The same argument will be made hereafinference will be drawn which the Senator from It has grown to such an enormous extent that we ter, unless the amendment of the Senator from Illinois has suggested, if the amendment is re now appropriate over $30,000 per annum for the Ohio prevails. If it does prevail, no officer can jected, and my friend from North Carolina who object. At the first session of the last Congress reasonably expect that the extra allowance will be has been in the habit of triumphing over us, will we appropriated, as has been said by the Senator made. Being myself entirely opposed to the systriumph in the same way again, and everybody from Pennsylvania, over $28,000; the last session tem, on the ground that it must inevitably lead to will get the money hereafter, who has been accus the amount was over $30,000. Yes, sir, to an gross corruption and abuse, and might be extended tomed to get it, and it will go even to the printers officer of this body whose salary is $3,000 we add to all the officers of the Government with as much and printers' clerks. I hope my friend from North $500 extra; to an officer whose salary is $1,800 reason as to the officers of the Senate, although it Carolina will yield to me in this small matter, and we add $250 extra; to an officer—the Sergeant-at- | would require in one case, the action of both cease to battle with me. I have given up to him Arms-whose salary is $1,500 we add $500 ex Houses, and in the other only the action of the once, and I now call on him to give way and vote tra, to clerks whose salaries are $1,500.we add Senate, I will vote against the resolution, unless for the proviso.
$250, to employees who draw from three to four the proviso is adopted. Mr. BADGER. Nothing would gratify me dollars per day we add $250, at a short as well as Mr. BADGER. The introductory remark in more than to have an opportunity of yielding to a long session; swelling the appropriation to the what the Senator from Delaware has done me my friend, but he must remember that this is not enormous sum of over $30,000.
the honor to read, should be expounded by a certhe proper place, in propria loco; things must be Whenever it has been resisted heretofore, we tain figure in rhetoric by which that is intended done in the right place. Now, he will recollect have been met by just such an argument as that which is not expressed, in order to show the meanthat he made his proposition, and at my appeal he used by the Senator from North Carolina to-day, ing which I had in view in what I said at that kindly and generously withdrew it. His own that the employees expected it; that they had lived time. But so far I was entirely in earnest in that heart, to which he then yielded, suggested to him with reference to it; that it would interfere greatly case. Though believing in the propriety of the that the proposition was a wrong one; but unfor- with their private engagements if they did not get i original system, yet it is the subject of so much tunately he has allowed the hard-hearted reason it, and therefore we were bound to vote for it. unnecessary difficulty in the Chamber and so much ing of the Senator from Ohio, supported by the We voted it at the last session, and we are asked misconception, that I am ready to yield and vote unfeeling argumentation of the Senator from Illi- | this morning to add three to the list. I thought for the system which may be matured to render it nois, to induce him to resist the impulses of his we had gone far enough when, at the close of the heart, and to resort to the stringent operation of last session, we added the gate-keeper; yes, sir, Mr. BAYARD. I read those remarks merely another influence. Now, Mr. President, such be the gate-keeper in the public grounds, remote for the purpose of showing that the same arguing the case, I cannot yield to him, because I should from the Capitol. I did not object to that, be ment might be made at a future session, if we do be doing my friend wrong. It would aid him in || lieving that an objection would be useless, as I not give the notice now. It was an argument that displacing himself from the elevated position which uniformly failed in objecting to the system. But weighed with me, coming with the force with he just now occupied. [Laughter.] The argument we have come to a point now when the system which it was stated, the first session at which I of my friend refers to the cases of limitations in can be checked. We can, by, the amendment took a seat in this body. By the adoption of the regard to custom-houses. Whenever it is neces offered by the Senator from Ohio, give notice to amendment I think you preclude the possibility sary to make an increase of the appropriation is our employees-worthy persons all of them, qual- of using such an argument at another session. it refused ? Never; and it never ought to be, for || ified for their places, I'admit; I mean nothing Mr. BADGER. If the Committee on Retrenchif the custom-house ought to be built, and the sum against any of them when I say, that if they are ment report a system which will do away with the first appropriated turns
out to be inadequate, how not satisfied with their regular salaries, there are extra compensation, no one will vote for the alabsurd 'it is to say that we will not appropriate the plenty of persons throughout this Confederacy, lowance; but if it does not, I assure the honorable money to complete it; that we will give no more who would be glad to take their places. If we Senator I will move the usual resolution, and the because we said we would give no more. So here I give the notice, it will be no argument hereafter, Senate will adopt it. my friend must be aware that if the Committee on in support of the extra compensation that our offi Mr. BAYARD. I think not. Retrenchment report a system upon this subject, cers have been living with reference to it. I hope The PRESIDENT. The question is on the and it should be adopted, the extra compensation that the vote on the amendment will be regarded amendment of the Senator from North Carolina will be done away with; but if it should not be as a test vote as to whether we intend to continue to the amendment. adopted, he knows that the Senate will order the the system or stop it, and with that view, I ask Mr. BAYARD. I will merely remark that the extra compensation, so that the amendment is use for the yeas and nays on it, so that the notice object of the amendment to the amendment is to less. I beg him to fall back upon the position of may appear on the record.
destroy the original amendment, and those who generous noble-heartedness which he occupied a Mr. BAYARD. In the special session of 1851, | are in favor of the original amendment will vote little while ago.
when I first took a seat in this body, I recollect against the proposition of the Senator from North Mr. DODGE, of Iowa: I will say to the Sen that a resolution was offered to supply an omis Carolina. ator that it was my judgment which was influenced sion which had occurred in not passing the cus Mr. CHASE. As the object of the amendment to withdrew the amendment and not my heart. 1 tomary resolution at the preceding session in ref to the amendment is clearly seen, we might as withdrew it because I had a regard for the busi erence to the extra compensation. At that time well take a test vote on it, and I therefore ask for ness of the Senate, and did not wish at the eleventh I was very much struck with the force of the argu the yeas and nays. hour of the session to consume time by going into ment used by the Serator from Indiana in op The yeas and nays were ordered; and being these matters. But, sir, I am satisfied that good position to the allowance. Independent of that | taken, resulted—yeas 4, nays 30; as follows: will grow out of the adoption of the amendment argument, I could never have consented to the
YEAS—Messrs. Badger, Borland, Cooper, and Morton of the Senator from Ohio, notwithstanding the introduction of such a system. But what weighed argument of my friend from North Carolina. Il with me in reply to that argument, was the lan NAYS–Messrs. Adams, Atchison, Atherton, Bayard, do consider that whatever Committee on Retrench- | guage of a distinguished Senator using the very ! Benjamin, Bright, Brodhead, Butler, Chase, Dodge of Wisment is formed at the next session, it will regard style of argument alluded to by the Senator from
consin, Dodge of Iowa, Douglas, Evans, Fitzpatrick, Ham
lin, Houston, Hunter, James, Jones of lowa, Mallory, Mathe adoption of the proviso as an instruction. If Ilinois. It induced me to vote in favor of the
son, Norris, Sebastian, Seward, Smith, Soulé, Stuart, it is voted down, the committee will just go on resolution, with the determination in my mind Sumner, Thompson of Kentucky, and Weller-30. as it did at the last session, and precisely the same that at no subsequent session would I give such a So the amendment to the amendment was rescenes will be enacted at the close of the session. vote. I will read the remarks made by the Sen- | jected. It is not the first instance in which my friend from
ator from North Carolina in reference to the argu The question recurring on the amendment, Mr. North Carolina has had a triumph over me. In
ment of the Senator from Indiana, in order to show Bright called for the yeas and nays, and they all the little matters of books, constitutions, &c., the necessity of the amendment now proposed by were ordered; and being taken resulted-yeas 34, he has triumphed over me. He has almost always the Senator from Ohio. Unless we adopt that
nays 3; as follows: triumphed over me by appeals, if not by votes. 'I | amendment, we shall have the same appeal made
YEAS-Messrs. Adams, Atchison, Atherton, Bayard, certainly do not blame him. at another session which was made then. The
Benjamin, Bright, Brodhead, Chase, Dodge of Wisconsin, Mr. BADGER. I never had a triumph over Senator from North Carolina said:
Dodge of fowa, Douglas, Evans, Everett, Fish, Fitzpatrick, my friend except in contests of generosity. In a “ I think the honorable Senator from Indiana is entitled Hamlin, Houston, Hunter, James, Jones of Iowa, Mallory, contest for votes, he has obtained it.
to all praise and commendation for the sentiments expressed Mason, Morton, Norris, Sebastian, Scward, Shields, Sunith, Mr. DODGE, of Iowa. But I will not prolong which he has taken in respect to it. 'I am glad to hear on this subject, taking the open, public, and manly ground Soule, Stuart, Sumner, Thompson of Kentucky, Toucey,
and Weller-34. this controversy further. I hope that the amend. him say that he intends at the next session of Congress to NAYS-Messrs. Badger, Borland, and Cooper-3. ment of the Senator from Ohio will be agreed to. propose a bill for the purpose of the reorganization of the
So it was agreed to; and the question recurring Mr. BRIGHT. I think the Senator from Ohio system. I assure him that I for one will, to the utmost of is right in offering his amendment, and I think his my power, cheerfully cooperate with him in establishing
on the resolution as amended, it was agreed to. such a system as shall make it unnecessary for the Senate reasoning in support of it has not been contro
PRINTING OF A MAP. to vote any extra compensation. But no question as to verted by the Senator from North Carolina. The what we shall do at the next session is now before us. The Mr. BORLAND. The Committee on Printing, system of extra compensation was considered question now is, whether we shall make the usual extra
to which was referred the question of printing a allowance to our officers, or suddenly, without notice, witha very trivial matter at its inception, but like out preconcert or any new arrangement, cut them off, and
map indicating the proposed course of steam navievery other iniquitous system it has grown, and leave them without that which, from our past conduct, igation between San Francisco and Shanghai, to though the Senator from North Carolina claims they had a just and fair right to expect?”
accompany a bill of the Senator from California, that it is expiring, it has certainly been longer It was the force and strength of that argument, (Mr. Gwin,) for the establishment of a line of dying than any other measure which I have ever ll applying to the precedents and usages of the Sen- 11 mail steamers, have directed me to report in favor
320 CONG....3d Sess.
Special Session-Committee to Procure Evidence.
of printing the same, and also in favor of printing they are hereby, authorized to d-legate one of their number self still more with that Department; but the Senone thousand extra copies. to proceed, during the ensuing recess of Congress, t') take
ator has no Indians in his State, and he has no testimony in the matter now on reference to said commit Mr. SEWARD. I move to amend the report tre, touching certain frauds alleged to have been committed
occasion to hear their clamorings, as I have. He by striking out "one thousand" and inserting by Alexander Ramsay and others, in making payment or does not know how the matter affects the local one thousand five hundred.”
moneys to certain bands of the Sioux Indians; and that the community. He can ill appreciate that there are
meinber of said committee so to be delegated have power The motion was agreed to; and the report of the
thousands of Indians on the frontier of Minnesota, 10 proceed to such points as may be necessary, and to send committee, as amended, was concurred in. for persons and papers, and swear witnesses, and take their
and among the pioneer settlements there, ready to REPOHT ON THE MEXICAN BOUNDARY. testimony, and certify the same with other proofs lo said do violence to protect their rights unless they see
committee for their report thereon at the next session of the Government moving with some prospect, and Mr. BORLAND. The same committee, to Congress.
some hope to them, that they are to have their which was referred the report of the Secretary of
Mr. HUNTER. I think that that is a very ob- matters investigated. Is there any peculiarity in the Interior, communicating, in further
compliance jectionable resolution. I think it a very bad prac- confiding to an individual the power of a dedimus with a resolution of the Senate, certain papers in
tice to have committees of the Senate sitting in the protestatem to take testimony Has not the genrelation to the Mexican boundary commission, has
recess. I believe that is not a fair and propertleman, in courts of justice, frequently sued out, directed me to report it back; and as the two thousand additional copies of the first part of the report || would it be for a committee to delegate its power who could swear witnesses and return the testi
mode of investigating any question; still worse these powers, and sent them to single individuals of Mr. Bartlett, the commissioner to run the bound
to one single individual. It is a power which mony certified to the court? That is all that is ary line, of which this is the completion, have
ought not to be exercised by any single member proposed by the resolution. It is only proposed been ordered to be printed, the committee report in favor of printing iwo thousand additional || proposed by the resolution belongs to the Execuof Congress. It seems to me that the inquiry that a single member of the Committee on Indian
Affairs shall be authorized to go on and complete copies of the completion of it.
iive. We shall soon have a new Governor of the the taking of the testimony during the recess, not The report was concurred in.
Territory, I presume, who will be ex officio Super- to make a report, but to certify that testimony to PAPERS WITHDRAWN.
intendent of Indian Affairs, and to him or to some the committee at the next session, so that they On motion by Mr. MALLORY, it was special commissioner to be appointed by the Execu- may have it under examination and report it,
Ordered, That the heirs of Joseph H. Waring be per- tive, would most properly be delegated such a duty together with their report, to the Senate. It is almitted 10 withdraw their papers from the files of the Senale.
as this. Are we to send our members, or the mem- leged in a letter which accompanies the charges REPORT OF TOPOGRAPHICAL DEPARTMENT. bers of the House of Representatives, about the that the individual has had to exercise his personal
M., HAMLIV. On the 191h of April, 1852, | country as commissioners to take testimony? | influence to keep the Indians, who have arms in there was transmitted to the Senate a report of the Surely there could be no practice more dangerous. ! their hands, from doing personal violence to the Tonographical Department, relating to the beacons I hope the Senate will not agree to it.
inhabitants. I hope violence will not result. and light-houses on the new south shoals of Nan. Mr. WALKER. I am aware that the opposi- ! For one, I am willing to lend myself to the luckel. Owing to the state of the public printing tion to, or the advocacy of, any matter which may duty of trying, if possible, to prevent it. I canit was not ordered to be printed. move that it he proposed in the Senate by the Senator from not see that there is any enormity in the propbe printed for the use of the Senate.
Virginia, comes with a great deal more force than osition contained in the resolution. If it be that The motion was agreed to.
anything which I, and perhaps the Committee on a commissioner is to be sent out, as the Senator REPORT OP COMMITTEE ON FRAUDS.
Indian Affairs, can say; bui that there is any- proposes, be it so; but my candid opinion is that
thing so peculiar in this matter I am not able to On motion by Mr. HOUSTON, it was
will cost vastly more than what the committee perceive." The subject has been referred to the Ordered, That fourteen hundred additional copies of the
propose will cost. A member of the committee report made yesterday by the Committee on Frauds, &c.,
Committee on Indian Affairs. They have pro- can take the testimony and bring it here, and the be printed for ibe use of the Senate.
ceeded to a considerable extent in taking testimony. | Committee on Indian Affairs can make their reLATE SERGEANT-AT-ARMS.
They find in that investigation that, with the wit- port upon it. I cannot see, situated as we are, On motion by Mr. SHIELDS, the Senate pro
nesses which they have examined here, they can that we should not be presumed to feel a deeper ceeded to consider the following resolution, sub
proceed but a short way in the inquiry. They interest in the matter than the Senator from Virmitted by him on Thursday last:
have proceeded far enough, however, to see that ginia; and I cannot well appreciate, unless the
this is an important matter, and that it ought to “ Resolved, That the Secretary of the Senate pay to Rob
design of his opposition is personal, why it is ert Beale, late Sergeant-at Arms, the salary for the residue
be investigated, and that the Senate ought to be thrown with so much strenuousness and violence of the present year."
fully informed about it. It is a matter which has against the matter. I am one of those who have Mr. PETTIT. Mr. President, I cannot well
been brought before the Senate upon memorial- lived long, for the period of my life, upon the imagine how a Senator who has just voted for the upon formal charges which I hold in my hand. frontiers. I have been much in contact with the amendment offered by the Senator from Ohio to
Mr. SEWARD. Who are they made by? Indians. I know a great deal of their character. another resolution, can propose such a resolution
Mr. WALKER. By persons residing in Min- j I know the necessity of keeping something in moas this. What do you propose to do, sir? You
nesota. One of them is a Mr. Robinson, and an. tion to satisfy them that the Government intends are here undertaking not to pay an officer, or one
other is a Mr. Sweetser. There are various dep- to give a respectful consideration to their rights, who is to render service of any kind to the Senate, ositions which the committee think it important and that is all that is proposed here. but to pay a person whom you have discharged to make.
Mr. BRODHEAD. I have heard a great deal from service." There can be no color of any claim
Mr. SEWARD. The Senator will excuse me about these charges against Governor Ramsay, for this compensation. You might as well estab.
for asking him to state the substance of the and I think it very proper that I should say a word lish a rule that after you had discharged all your charges.
or two with regard to him. officers you would continue to pay them. I would
Mr. WALKER. An appropriation of $590,000 Mr. WALKER. Will the Senator allow me to like to know if there is any reason for it. You
was made for the Sioux Indians. The substance say that in what I have said I did not intend to can hold your officers as long as you please, and
of the charges is, that Governor Ramsay, who intimate anything against Governor Ramsay. I
was the custodier of the money, got the currency pay them; but after they are discharged, I cannot
have only stated that charges have been made, and see why you should pay them.
of the United States exchanged for the paper of intimated the importance of having them inquired Mr. SÁIELDS. As the Senator from Indiana
certain banks of the State of New York, upon into, by taking testimony: has charged me with inconsistency, I must say
which he made a large percentage; that he took Mr. 'BRODHEAD. I have heard of these to him that I am not inconsistent in offering this
the money to Minnesota; that he there em- charges, and it is proper that I should say that I resolution, although I did vote for the proviso of ployed a third person as agent to make the pay have had an acquaintance of several years with the Senator from Ohio. His proviso was against
ment; that in making that payment the agent of Governor Ramsay. I have served with him for giving extra pay to officers of the Senate. Every
the Government imposed upon the Indians the four years in the House of Representatives. I also body knows that Mr. Beale is not an officer of the
necessity of allowing a large percentage, alleged | served in the Legislature of the State of PennsylvaSenate, so that there is no inconsistency.
to be fifteen per cent., upon the money paid, before nia while he was a clerk of the House. I think Mr. MASON. It is manifest that this resolu
it could pass into the hands of the Indians; that therefore that it is due from me to say, that while I tion will lead to debate, and I therefore move to the money that was set apart to be paid to the served with him he maintained a good character for lay it on the table for the purpose of proceeding half-breed Indians was arbitrarily paid, and only integrity. I say nothing about his political views, to the consideration of Executive business.
to a certain portion, and with held from the rest. for I differed with him on that subject. I think it is The motion was agreed to; there being on a
The committee have proceeded, to a certain ex- proper that these charges should be investigated. It division--ayes 17, noes 16.
tent, to investigate the charges. They have ar- is due to Governor Ramsay, and I confess I cannot
rived at a point which would show that there is a EXECUTIVE SESSION.
see any more proper mode of making the investiOn motion by Mr. MASON, the Senate pro- ceed no further for the reason that some members
great deal of importance in it; but they can pro- gation than that proposed by the Committee on ceeded to the consideration of Executive business; l of the Legislature of Minnesota, which has lately
Indian Affairs. I think it would be quite as ecoand after some time spent therein, the doors were
nomical as any mode that can be pursued. I think been in session, and persons who reside there as reopened,
the investigation is important, and I do not think And the Senate adjourned.
missionaries and as citizens have not been here, it would be objected to by those making the and could not be got here in time to give us their charges, or hy those against whom they are made
evidence; but they can be sworn there, and their || I understand ihat both sides are demanding an inTHURSDAY, March 24, 1853. testimony taken.
vestigation, though I do not know what tribunal Prayer by the Chaplain, Rev. C. M. BUTLER.
I am aware, as I commenced by saying, that either party desires. I have had no communica
the Senator from Virginia occupies an important tion either with the persons making the charges The Senate proceeded to consider the following position here. He is chairman of the Committee or the accused. resolution submitted by Mr. WALKER, from the on Finance, which connects itself peculiarly with I can add, further, that I did not vote for the Committee on Indian Affairs, on the 21st instant: the Executive Department; and Virginia also has treaties under which the payments were made; it
Rexlrod, That the Committee on Indian Affairs be, and the head of another committee which connects it- ll is unnecessary for me to state the reasons. But I
320 CONG....30 Sess.
Special Session-Committee to Procure Evidence.
think it highly proper that the charges should be It is an immense power to be lodged in the hands that whoever is sent, will go with honest intentions investigated. Tam willing to leave the matter in of a committee, and still more in the hands of a to get the facts on both sides. If it becomes nethe hands of any member of the Committee on In- || single individual. When the committees of the cessary for him to put questions to elicit the facts dian Affairs; and I hope the facts may be brought || Senate, or of the other House, sit making an in 1 upon the charges, he is to do so; but it will not be out, and the guilty persons punished, whoever | vestigation while we are in session, they sit in competent for him to condemn or acquit anybody; they may be. Besides, this is a matter which is some measure under the correction of the House. || he is only to report to the committee for its action, pending before this body. We must either dis- | If the investigation takes an improper direction, and by them report to the Senate, for the Senate's miss it altogether, or proceed with the investiga- and the persons who are sworn to give evidence action in its legislative capacity. That is what is tion. We cannot proceed, in my opinion, in any before them complain, there are means before meant; and if the Senate is disposed to stigmatize better mode than that proposed by the Senator the House of inquiring into their conduct, or the members of the Indian Committee as being from Wisconsin.
giving some direction to it under the direction of incompetent to do what is often done by commisMr. SEWARD. I know Governor Ramsay the House itself; but when it is done by commit- || sioners under a dedimus protestalum, let it say so. somewhat well. I cannot believe that the charges tees without any responsibility to the House, they Mr. HUNTER. Does the Senator charge me made against him are true. If I knew him less per have the whole power in their own hands, and it with stigmatizing the Committee on Indian Affectly than I do, I should still hold myself bound to is an improper power. It seems to me that when fairs in that manner? I do not object to that comdisbelieve them, until they were proved. But I we leave this place our Ingislative powers are gone, mittee particularly; I object to such a power being quite concur with the suggestions of the two Sen and that if inquiries are to be made, if commis- I given to any committee or individual. ators who have last spoken. After the statement sioners are to be appointed to take testimony, they Mr. WALKER. I make no charges. I speak made by the Senator from Wisconsin, I do not ought to be appointed by the Executive; and more warmly, but it is my nature-I cannot help it. I know how the Senate can go by giving the com especially does it seem to be proper in this case to do not wish to be unkind. I wish every Senator mittee power to send one of their number during leave it to the Governor of the Territory, who will of whom I speak, so to understand it, for somethe recess for the object proposed. The Senate is be ex officio Superintendent of Indian Affairs. 1 times when I'am actuated by the kindest feelings, a part of the treaty-making power, together with have no personal objection to the appointment of I may appear to speak too warmly, and even anthe Executive, and has to take a part of the re any Senator who might be selected by the Com- grily. I do not mean to be understood as imsponsibility with regard to the care and guardian-mittee on Indian Affairs; nor do I object to an in- plying any unkind feeling to the Senator. ship over the Indian tribes. If these charges are vestigation. I think there ought to be an exam But upon the score of expense, it would be all false, it is yet established in our history that ination; but I believe that we shall as certainly greater to send the entire committee to attend to there have been frauds practiced by Government have one without the resolution as with it; and if the duty, although I would much prefer it. If it agents upon the Indians, not surpassed in magni we do not pass it, we shall have one appointed | is desirable that two, three, four, or the whole Lude and in turpitude by these which are alleged in from the proper quarterthe Executive. Toppose committee be authorized to conduct the investigathis case. I remember a treaty which was made the resolution because I regard it as a dangerous tion, let it be so, But the committee, on considerwith the Seneca Indians for the surrender of their precedent. I see the practice to which it may lead ations of economy, thought it would meet the reservation in the State of New York, which agi- hereafter in the appointing not merely of commit- || views of the Senate more to ask that one of its tated the State and the nation for many years,
and tees to sit during the recess, but of single Senators | members, as a kind of commissioner, should be which was frequently under discussion in the Sen to act as commissioners to take testimony upon | delegated to take the testimony, to have it ready ate, for the purpose of deciding whether the treaty | public matters in important cases.
at the next session, so as not to draw the members should not be abrogated on account of the frauds Mr. WALKER. I cannot appreciate the force of the Legislature of Minnesota or the Governor committed under it. It is due to the agents of the of what the Senator from Virginia says. The of Minnesota here; not to bring them from the Governmenton all occasions, that when any respon- || charges have been made to the Senate of the Uni extreme point of Minnesota to the seat of Govsible party shall submit charges against them, ihey ted States. You have imposed the duty on your ernment, but that they may give their testimony shall have a full investigation. Ånd it is not only committee of proceeding in the investigation of in Minnesota, where one individual can collect necessary that they should have a full investiga them. They have reached a point from which it them, while they could not perhaps be collected tion, but a prompt one; for if not done promptly it would be unsatisfactory to both sides to decide | here. All that is asked is, that their testimony will not be fully done.
upon them; for nobody is making the demand may be taken in writing, to be brought here for If we suspend this investigation till the lapse of more strenuously for an examination than Gover action of the Senate. the recess of Congress, it is easy to see that it will nor Ramsay. He demands it. He says that he Mr. MALLORY. I would suggest whether go over altogether. The delay will amount to a is innocent in the matter. We know nothing to if we confer the power upon a single member of postponement of the investigation of the charges
the body to act as commissioner, he obtains any until the subject becomes stale and obsolete. If it he is guilty. We have proceeded, as I before re peculiar authority under it to compel witnesses to is done, and done promptly, there is no other way marked, to a certain point in the investigation, | attend and give their testimony, and whether false to do it but through the agency of this committee, and we cannot go further without the passage of swearing under such authority would be punish. and I do not see how the committee could exer the resolution. It is not that we are disposed to able as perjury or not? It is doubtful in my mind cise more discretion, more prudence, and more take any of the duties of the Executive on our whether persons could be punished for false swearregard to economy than in the manner proposed | hands, but it is that the committee may be enabled | ing under such circumstances. I question further by them. I trust one of their number will be sent to discharge their duty to the Senate and to the whether it would not be eminently proper for us, to take the testimony upon which their report | parties, both of which are demanding that an in- if we confer the power on a single member to act must be made at the next session of Congress. If vestigation may be had. I would prefer that the in this manner, after the adjourninent of Congress, it were any other case, I would not be so strenu committee should be continued to make the inves to prescribe the mode of taking the testimony; ous; but where the Indians are concerned, and tigation, but I know what objections have been how the oaths are to be administered; what form where their abstract rights are involved, the case raised here to such propositions, on the score of should be used; and whether parties interested is a strong one. And it is much more so, because expense. It was therefore thought by the com should be competent witnesses or not; for in some on the reputation of our good faith among the In mittee best to ask the Senate to permit them to States they are competent, and in others they are dian tribes, we depend for peace and tranquillity | delegate one of their members, not to report on incompetent. It appears to me that the mere conupon our border settlements. I shall therefore the subject, not to investigate it, but to go as it ferring of the power nakedly, in the way provery cheerfully vote for the resolution.
were and discharge the mechanical duty of taking | posed, is not proper. Mr. HUNTER. The Senators are arguing as down the words of the witnesses from their own Mr. SEWARD. It seems to me, sir, that if if I objected to an investigation. The fact is quite | lips, and then certify that the testimony taken we cannot trust a committee of this Senate with the contrary. I believe that an investigation ought down was properly taken.
discretion to take testimony upon a question before to be made, and that one will be made whether we Mr. HUNTER. Who will ask the questions? them, we had better disband our committees and pass the resolution or not. It is to the mode of || Who will conduct the examination? The com discharge them from service. If the Committee on investigation which is proposed in the resolution missioner?
Indian Affairs are incompetent to ascertain the that I object. I think it is a matter for Executive Mr. WALKER. I suppose there will be writ- rules and the practice of courts and of parliamentinquiry, and not for a single Senator to conduct ten interrogatories in regard to the charges under ary bodies, in the investigation of cases, then they during the recess of the Senate. Nor do I know consideration.
are fit for nothing; and we are quite as unfit as why it is that the Senator from Wisconsin should Mr. HUNTER. Is that a mechanical duty? they, because we have called them to discharge suppose that I have any personal reason for object Mr. WALKER. Clearly. There will be in this trust. ing to it. I have advanced none but public con- terrogatories written by the man who will perform Mr. MALLORY. I would like to ask the Sen. siderations, and public considerations, it seems to the manual duty, and the answers will be returned ator one question, and that is, as I suggested be. me, of weight. Sir, in what capacity is this single to the Senate.
fore, whether false swearing, in giving testimony Senator to act in the recess when we have all gone Mr. HUNTER. Does the Senator mean that before the individual who should be sent as a away? Is he a Senator still in session during the there are certain written interrogatories prepared member of the committee, would be perjury or not? recess, clothed with legislative powers? How is by the committee?
It is a question not as to whether the committee he to be paid? Who is to decide what he is to Mr. WALKER. There have not been any would be competent to take testimony; that is take? Is heto have per diem and mileage, no matter directed.
conceded; but whether you could punish an indi. where he may go making the investigation? See Mr. HUNTER. Then the commissioner is to vidual for false swearing in such a case. the difficulties into which we shall be led if this ask what questions he chooses.
Mr. SEWARD. I will answer the learned practice be established.
Mr. WALKER. Suppose that is the case; I gentleman that I suppose perjury, under the laws But, again, this method of taking testimony in suppose if a man goes under the direction of the of the United States, committed before any person regard to a disputed question, whether it be con committee, he will go with honest intentions to authorized by the Senate of the United States to ducted by a single individual or by a committee get the facts of the matter, and if it is not so pre- take testimony under oath, would be punishable. of the Senate sitting in the recess of Congress, it sumed let the Senate vote the resolution down, and There is an act of Congress, as I understand, to seems to me is not the fairest mode of proceeding. I say it will not trust one of its members. I presume II that effect. It does not alter the case at all, whether
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there be one or several persons empowered to take | Virginia, that it is a very dangerous precedent to assume through the Senate any part of the duties testimony. The Senate may delegate this power have this continuing power of the committees in the which belong to the Executive. I should greatly to one as well as to three or five. Then we come recess of the Senate. I objected very much to prefer to leave the whole subject with the Presiback to the question suggested by the Senator other committees being appointed, for the Senate dent and his Commissioner of Indian Affairs; and from Virginia, (Mr. Hunter,) whether it is wiser sits long enough without them. I expect we will || I feel confident that they will give to all parties a and whether it is better and safer to refer, or leave be in session all the year after a while. I suppose fair and thorough investigation, and that at the this subject to the Executive, than to exercise the this investigation will go on. _If it is to go on per next session, if we desire information, we can obpower ourselves. From the history of free insti- haps it ought to be under the Executive authority. tain it in the
ordinary way from the Department. tutions, from the history of Parliaments in England | I do not know whether it could prosecute such a Mr. WALKER. I wish to say a word or two down to this day, we know that the duty of legis- || commission as you would impose the duty upon. with reference to the point raised by the Senator lative inquiry into abuses in the Executive Depart- || I am not prepared to say, but I am perfectly cer from South Carolina with regard to the examinament of the Government, has been one of the tain that there is no such thing in the contempla- tion and cross-examination of witnesses, and to highest trusts reposed in the Legislature. It is the tion of the statute as a committee disorganizing state that the committee on Indian Affairs have theory of the English Government; it is the theory itself and making one of its members do the busi- || taken that very course. They have presented inof our Government.
terrogatories, and have had a cross-examination Mr. HUNTER. I would ask the Senator if I Mr. COOPER. I have not looked to-day at the of witnesses in order that the facts might be elihave objected to legislative inquiry, or whether statutę, but I remember very well, in the other || cited. the objection has not been to continue using the House, on one occasion, that I did look at the In reference to what was said by the Senator power of the committee during the recess? I have law on the subject, and I satisfied myself that un from Ohio, if I understand the organization of the admitted the propriety of legislative inquiry by the der the authority given to a committee to investi- | committees of the Senate, which is a perpetual Senate.
gate and send for persons and papers and take tes- || body, they hold their appointment until they are Mr. SEWARD. I understood the Senator to timony, that a right to appoint a commissioner to superseded. Certainly we shall proceed at the say that he wished the resolution might not pass, take the testimony is given. In the case to which next session to appoint new committees; and if because he anticipated an inquiry by the more I alluile, a commissioner was appointed three sev not then, those now appointed will continue. appropriate authority, and that was the Executive. || eral times. The late Senator from Tennessee Such has always been my apprehension of the Mr. HUNTER. More proper during the re (Mr. BELL] was chairman of the committee at matter. Some gentlemen say
"No." first. He issued a coromission to a person in Na The PRESIDING OFFICER. The rule is Mr. SEWARD. One word on that point. We cogdoches, Louisiana, to take testimony. Mr. that the committees "shalt be appointed at the have commenced the investigation; we have as Adams was afterwards chairman. He continued
commencement of each session." sumed the responsibility. It is legitimate. We the commission. At a subsequent period, I be Mr. WALKER. So I understand; and a have arrived at the adjournment, and we are un came chairman and issued a commission under the committee appointed at this session exists until able, by reason of that adjournment, to prosecute authority of that statute. This is my recollection one is appointed at the next session. And now the investigation to a close. Shall we suspend it of the statute, and I have no doubt that under it what is proposed by the resolution is simply to for the purpose of resuming it again at the next the committee will have the power to appoint a | authorize one of our committees to delegate one session of Congress? No, because there will have person to take the testimony.
of its members to proceed, during the time for been a delay which will be injurious. Then must Mr. CHASE. I have no doubt that a committee which it is constituted, to procure testimony for we suspend, and trust that the Executive will take during the sitting of the Senate can authorize its the action of the body at the next session. up and complete the investigation which we have members to take testimony; but the difficulty which Mr. ADAMS. Í voted at the last session commenced? But the Executive has no responsi- | strikes my mind is this: The Committee on Indian | against the creation of various committees to be bility upon the subject; he has assumed none. 1 || Affairs is a committee for this special session. It | authorized to sit during vacation. I then doubted do not know that the subject has been brought be. can exist only during this session. After the ad- || the propriety of such a proceeding, though I have fore him. We could not calculate that the Exec- | journment of the Senate, there can be no Commit no doubt of the power of the Senate to appoint a utive would assume the responsibility unless we tee on Indian Affairs. If it cannot act itself be committee of its own body to obtain information request him to do it. Now, if I were to choose yond the session, it can communicate no power to when a proper case is presented for its considerthe functionary to whom to delegate the power, || anybody else to act. It seems to me that view ation. I understand it to be the duty of the Presand who would prosecute this subject with the of the subject is conclusive.
ident of the United States to see that the laws are greatest care and with the highest sense of re In regard to this general system, if the Senate is | faithfully executed, and the duty of the legislative sponsibility, I should prefer the Committee on indisposed to go into this business of examinations | body to see that proper laws are passed; and if Indian Affairs to the Executive. It is true there through the medium of its own members sitting this body discovers a deficiency in the information might be abuses by the committee, and so there during the recess, now is the very time to indicate in relation to our legislative duties, and we can might be by the Executive. The person whom its determination to discontinue that practice. Il obtain that information by a committee of our we delegate will be responsible to us at the next The Committee on Indian Affairs is constituted of own body better than in any other way, I have no session, and he will be responsible to the public. some of the ablest and most distinguished mem doubt of the propriety of appointing a committee. What he does could not be done in secret. The bers of the Senate; it is a committee in which the Then the whole question, in my mind, in refervery fact that he should attempt to do it in secret Senate reposes entire confidence, and everything ence to the proposed committee, is as to the imwould be an impeachment of himself, which would they may do either in conducting the examina- | portance of the information. Charges have been forfeit his claim to the confidence of the people in tion or delegating it would meet the entire confi made against a public officer. He is amenable by the report which must come from him. He must dence of the Senate. There can be no ground for | impeachment to this body. The House of Repact openly, for there will be witnesses, and if they the slightest distrust of the committee. If, then, resentatives has as much interest as the Senate has have good ground to complain of his management we have a committee so intelligent, so deserving of in relation to the performance of his duties by of the subject, they will come here and complain. | confidence as that, it is with that very committee that officer. The duty is devolved upon the PresIt seems to me we are throwing unnecessary diffi we should begin, for there can be no suspicion | ident of the United States to see that the laws are culties in the way of this resolution, the only effect | whatever of any motive of distrust.
faithfully executed. If there is any action desired of which difficulties will be to delay the investiga Now, sir, is the practice itself right? The to be taken by this body, I have no objection to of the case, which a regard for justice requires President of the United States is charged with the || taking the proper means to obtain information. should be made soon.
executive conduct of our public affairs under the My principal object in rising is to propose an Mr. BUTLER. There has been one question | law, and by and with the advice and consent of amendmeni. If it is desirable and I know it is suggested in this discussion upon which I wish to the Senate he appoints the Commissioner of In desirable to the whole country—that correct insay a word. What is perjury? What does it de dian Affairs. That is a bureau by itself in this formation should be had in reference to this alpend upon ? Strictly, there is no such thing as Government. That bureau and the President | leged fraud, I would suggest that a small differknowing what perjury is by the laws of the Uni- himself will undoubtedly find their attention at ence in the compensation and expenses should not ted States, except by positive enactment. There tracted by the subject which has engaged the at be looked to. "Therefore I move to strike out are a good many acts upon the subject to say tention of the Committee on Indian Affairs. The "one" and insert “three," so as to have a comwhat is or what is not perjury. I know by ex law has confided this whole subject to the Presi- | mittee of three appointed to take the testimony; press statute a committee of Congress has the dent and to the bureau. Shall we withdraw it and then whatever may be the sense of the Senate right to administer an oath, but it is as a com from their hands? Is it wise to divide the respon as to the propriety of appointing a committee, I mittee, in virtute oficii; but when the committee sibility of the Executive department of the Govern- have no choice in reference to it. is disorganized and a single member is delegated | ment It is true, as it is said, that the Senate The PRESIDING OFFICER, (Mr. BADGER with the power, I do not believe there is any advises the President. That is undoubtedly cor in the chair.) The Chair would suggest that the such thing in the law. I do not believe it is | rect; but we advise the President upon matters amendment should be put in a different form. The the contemplation of the statute, that the power submitted to the Senate. We do not volunteer | resolution is that the Committee on Indian Affairs can be conferred on a single person by the commit- |, advice to the President; much less ought we, it | delegate one of their number to perform the duty.
I have no doubt that the honorable Senator seems to me, to originate and conduct an investi Mr. ADAMS. I move to strike all that out, from Wisconsin would perform the duty proposed gation by ourselves, or when the Senate is not in and make it read, that a committee of three be by the resolution in good faith and with imparti- || session, which belongs especially to the Execu- | appointed by the Presiding Officer to perform the ality, but we know, Mr. President, how jealous tive department of the Government. Our com duty. parties are of having testimony taken with the mittees look to the Executive department of the Mr. HUNTER. Here are two laws in relation right of examination and cross-examination. We Government for advice and instruction. There to the power of committees to administer oaths. know it is very much insisted upon by all parties; are the sources of evidence in a great measure. They have been handed to me, and I desire to reand we should guard this right of investigation by There the evidence may be collected from the tes fer to them. The first is the law of May 3, 1798, all the ordinary rules which have heretofore been timony of witnesses before them. It seems to me which provides that the President of the Senate, observed. I say, with the honorable Senator from Il it would be indiscreet, to say the least of it, to the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the
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Special Session-Committee to Procure Evidence.
chairman of the Committee of the Whole, or the I know Governor Ramsay well. I formerly quired through a committee of Senators. It ought chairman of a Select Committee of either House served with him in the other louse. Whether to be acquired through a committee of strangers; 'shall be empowered to administer oaths or af- he be guilty or not I am not prepared to say, hav- and even if the House of Representatives sent its 'firmations to witnesses in any case under their ing had no connection with this matter; but while own committee, it ought to send it as a prosecu
examination." The next is an act to extend serving with him in the other House I regarded ting committee with a view to an impeachment. the provisions of that act. It provides “ that the him as an honorable man. I hope and trust it I shall decidedly oppose the raising of the commit.chairman of any standing committee, either of may turn out that he has remained so. But if he tee of three Senators. 'the House of Representatives or of the Senate be an honorable man, he asks this examination, Mr. MASON. I move that the further conof the United States, shall be empowered to ad- and it is due from the Senate, or any public body sideration of the subject be postponed until tominister oaths or affirmations to witnesses in any having the power, to make the examination case under their examination, and any person promptly and speedily, that it shall be made. The motion was agreed to. who shall be guilty of perjury before such com- Why hold him up, I say, a long year, and more
EXECUTIVE BUSINESS. mittee, shall be liable to the pains and penalties than a year, to public scorn, ridicule, and the de. prescribed for the punishment of the crime of nunciations of the papers all over the country,
On motion by Mr. MASON, the Senate prowillful and corrupt perjury.” So that the power when we have the power to prepare the way for ceeded to the consideration of Executive business; is expressly confined to the Presiding Officers of his punishment or relieve him from suspicion ?
and after some time spent therein, the doors were the two Houses, and the chairmen of committees. To obviate the difficulty suggested by the Sen. reopened. Mr. TOUCEY. I am not satisfied to vote for ator from Virginia, who believes that there is some
Mr. BORLAND moved that the Senate adjourn; this delegation of power by a committee. I am doubt about the authority of the delegate of a
which was not agreed to. not satisfied that the delegate of the committee committee to administer oaths, or the punishment
ADJOURNMENT OVER. would have any power whatever to compel the which would follow in the event of a violation of attendance of witnesses. I am not satisfied that the oaths, I will move to amend the resolution so
Mr. SEWARD moved that when the Senate if the oath was administered and violated, that the as to make it read that a committee of three shall adjourn, it be to meet on Monday next. party could be ir.dicted for perjury. And if a be appointed.
Mr. HOUSTON. I hope, Mr. President, that witness 'were to refuse to answer an inquiry of The PRESIDING OFFICER. An amend
that will not be done. I am satisfied that the the delegate, I do not think there would be any ment is already pending for that purpose, offered effect of that would be, that when we assemble power to commit him for his refusal to answer. by the Senator from Mississippi.
on Monday there will not be a quorum here. I If, therefore, I were in favor of committees sitting Mr. PETTIT. I was not aware of that. I
shall have to ask the yeas and nays on the motion. during the recess of Congress, I should still be will say one word in reference to it. If the Sen- The yeas and nays were not ordered. opposed, for the reason that I have suggested, to ate appoint such a committee, there can be no
Mr. HOUSTON. I will merely suggest, before a committee organized in this manner.
doubt of the authority of that committee to admin- | the question is put, that if we adjourn over until But, sir, it is made the duty of the President of ister the oaths, to progress with the investigation, | Monday, and then find ourselves here without a the United States to see that the laws are faithfully to do justice to the party accused, and to do jus- | quorum, we can then only adjourn from day to executed, and treaties are the supreme laws of the tice to the country.' It is idle to talk about the day, and shall consequently have to sit the reland. It is therefore his duty, under the Consti- miserable paltry sum which it will cost. Supposemainder of the year, tution, to make the inquiry, and there is a bu. you should pay the per diem and mileage of three
Mr. MASON. If the business before the Senreau of the Executive department, to which that members of Congress; suppose you should pay
ate is to be acted on, it is necessary that we should inquiry properly belongs. I am not satisfied either the mileage to Minnesota or elsewhere in the remain here until it is finished. We have now that there would be any evil arising from the de- country, wherever it shall be necessary, and the but a bare quorum, and many gentlemen have lay. We shall not be here until the next session regular per diem during this vacation, what great told me that they are obliged to leave the city. I of Congress to take advantage of any information sum would it be at last? Sir, is it to be weighed
am not one of those who will leave. Although it which the committee may obtain. The next ses- in the balance at all with the administration of || is a very great inconvenience to me to remain sion will be the long one, and if this is an investi- public justice, with the investigation of charges of here, I submit to it, and I intend to sit here from gation which ought to go on, and if the Execu- large peculation and wrong? Is it to weigh for a day to day until we finish the public business. tive departments shall neglect to make the investi- moment in the balance against the character of an
Mr. PHELPS. Permit me to say, Mr. Presigation, we shall then have the power in season honorable man, which is put in jeopardy in this dent, that I do not see anything to be gained by for any action to make the inquiries, before we, manner. It ought not for one moment. 'I hope, adjourning over until Monday. Weare certainly in this body, or the members of the other House, to put the question beyond any doubt as to the not so overburdened with business that we need could act upon any information which might be authority to administer the oaths, and their bind- to sit more than two days, and I think we had obtained by this mode of investigation which is ing effect, that a committee of three will be raised. better finish it this week. I agree with my friends proposed. 'I hope, therefore, the whole inquiry || I believe it will be better to intrust the power to
over the way, that if we adjourn until Monday will be suspended until we meet again. such a committee than to one person. It is a large
we shall never get a quorum again. Mr. PETTIT. It seems to me that it is due power to delegate to one man, I grant. Let there
Mr. CHASÉ. I will remark that to-morrow alike to the Senate and to the accused, Governor ihen be a committee of three appointed. I insist, || is Good Friday, and I think respect enough is Ramsay, that this investigation should go on at at any rate, that the investigation shall go on.
due to the wishes of those Senators who desire to the earliest day. It is all true that it may go on The honorable Senator from Wisconsin having keep that day to induce the Senate to adjourn at the next session, which will be the long session; been the mover of the resolution, would, in all over. I will therefore suggest to my friend from but there will be nothing done during the first probability, if the resolution as he introduced it || New York to agree to a compromise, and modify months in the winter, and laboring in the summer should pass, be detailed by the Committee on In- || his motion so as to adjourn over until Saturday will be rather an unpleasant and wearisome un- dian Affairs to make the investigation; and I take instead of Monday. dertaking, besides the difficulty of dragging wit- great pleasure in saying, that having known that Mr. BADGER. It seems that we have got the nesses from Minnesota here to give their testi- gentleman since our early youth, having long || Senator from Ohio in favor of a compromise at mony, when two or three men might be sent there since formed an acquaintance, I might well say
last, (Laughter.] for the purpose of taking the testimony. If Gov- from boyhood, I take pleasure in saying that I do
Mr. SEWARD. If the honorable Senator from ernor Ramsay is innocent, as I trust it may turn not believe such a duty could be confided to more Ohio goes for a compromise, I believe I must give out he is—and I do not pretend to speak on that faithful, efficient, or honest hands. I trust, how- up too. I accept his proposition, and will modify point at all—as an honorable man I ask for him ever, the resolution will be so amended as to ap- || my motion so that when we adjourn it be to meet that the Senate shall take the most prompt and point a committee of three, in order that there may on Saturday, at twelve o'clock. efficient means for having the charges investigated. be no doubt about the power.
Mr. BORLAND. I move that the Senate now If he be innocent, and has been falsely charged, Mr. BUTLER. If we are to go on with the adjourn. why continue to have him held up to the gaze of | investigation proposed by the honorable Senator The question being then taken, upon a division the world for a year as a villain and that of the from Wisconsin, and which seems to be insisted there were-ayes 10, noes 16; so the Senate reworst kind? He is demanding the investigation. upon by the Senator from Indiana, it does seem fused to adjourn. It is due to him that he should have it at our to me that three Senators are the very last persons
Mr. BORLAND. Although the Senate has hands. Sir, there can be no difficulty in detailing who ought to be employed to make it, because refused to adjourn, I think it is pretty clear that one member of that committee or the whole of Governor Ramsay-about whom I know nothing we can do no other business; for there is not a them for the investigation.
-is amenable to the Federal Government for his l quorum present. Mr. CHASE. The Senator from Indiana has acts, and he must be amenable through the ordi
Mr. S'EWARD. I hope the question will be said that Governor Ramsay has demanded an in- nary mode in which all public functionaries are put on my motion. vestigation. Has he addressed any communica amenable, that is by impeachment from the House Mr. BÓRLAND. I do not believe that is in tion to that effect?
of Representatives. And, sir, in that point of | order when there is no quorum; but I will ask the Mr. PETTIT. He has not addressed any view we are the judges; and are the judges of the yeas and nays upon it, at any rate. communication to me.
accused to send out their own committee to col- The yeas and nays were not ordered. Mr. CHASE. Has he addressed any commu- lect testimony? That would be, in a fair contem- The question being then put on the motion that nication to the Senate?
plation of our duties, a paradox. I do not know when the Senate adjourn it be to meet on SaturMr. PETTIT. I have not seen any. I took what use we could make of the information if we day next, on a division there were-ayes 17, noes the word of the Senator for the statement. I had it. Could we impeach the accused? All we | 9; no quorum voting. seems to me that we ought to have the investiga- could do would be to acquit him. If it became Mr. BRIGHT then moved that the Senate adtion so as to settle the question whether he is necessary for us to decide, upon his guilt, this journ; which was not agreed to. guilty or not. If he is innocent he ought to have i would be an improper mode of proceeding. I Mr. PETTIT. I move that when the Senate it on his own account; and we ought to have it if make this suggestion, therefore, that if any inform- | adjourn it be to meet at twelve o'clock on Monday he is guilty.
ation is to be acquired, it ought not to be ac- next.