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omitted a part of the phraseology employed $4,500 for any services which he rendered, or to resist the decisions of the respective Houses
None of them are selected with a view to poldifferences in prices existing now and existing Mr. HARLAN. And to that is now pending | itics ; and so with the three Comptrollers ; at the time when the appropriation bill was an amendment to put the Commissioner of the and yet it happens that these officers agree in passed which provided for it last year.
General Land Office in the same category with political opinion with a majority of the Senate, I have heard it said by Senators here that the Auditors of the Treasury.
all of them, I believe, though there may perliving is very expensive in Washington. Cer- Mr. CONKLING. Then I am very glad to haps be one or two exceptions. They were tainly it is; living is very expensive every- concur with my friend that if the amendment most of them appointed years ago, during Mr. where. It is expensive in the city of New is to be adopted that officer ought to be added Lincoln's administration. They are admitted York; expensive in the city of Albany; ex: to it. I think it would be grossly unjust to to be able and excellent officers. There are pensive in the city of Buffalo, and in other exclude him. My proposition is to vote down Mr. Taylor and Mr. Brodbead and Mr. Sarcities in which judges reside who perform large the entire amendment.
gent; and the Auditors are all men of capacity services, and do not receive, many of them, a Mr. SHERMAN. I have a few words to say || and ability. salary as great as this. It seems to me, Mr. in regard to these officers, but not in regard It must be remembered that these officers President, that this cannot be defended; and to the particular case pointed out by the Sen- have for the last three years by law received a the way to avoid the injustice of excluding ator from New York. If in the opinion of higher salary than the annual compensation other persons on the one hand or of londing the Senate or of any Senator the present Regis- fixed by the old acts; that is to say, authority the bill with many on the other is, I submit, ter of the Treasury is not a good oflicer and has been conferred upon the Secretary of the to vote down this amendment, and leave the ought not to have this increase of salary ex- Treasury for three years to make them an law where it now is.
tended to him, I have not the slightest dispo- additional allowance, and that has been done. The honorable Senator from Iowa spoke of sition to include his case. My own impression || They have actually been drawing $4,500 and the Commissioner of Pensions. I
is that the present incumbent is a good officer, $4,000 a year, precisely the amount that we him entirely that he was a very pure and com- and is attending to his duties faithfully and now propose to give them by law, so that this petent man, but I did not understand, although honestly and very vigilantly ; but at the same proposition is not to increase their salaries as I once had a talk with him on the subject, that time I do not wish to embarrass this proposition to them, but is simply to provide in a different he resigned exclusively or chiefly on account by the fact that, as it stands, he will be a bene. mode what they have received for the last of the inadequacy of his pay. 'l'he Senator, ficiary under it. He has never applied for an
We have the personal statement however, may have better information on that increase of salary, never alluded to it any way, of these officers that their salary is totally inadpoint than I have. The Commissioner of Pat- directly or indirectly, so far as I know, to any equate for the support of themselves and their ents also resigned some time ago.
Did he member of the coinmittee. This effort has families living here in a plain, bomely style; resign on account of the inadequacy of the pay, been made chiefly for the benefit of the Comp- and we all know the fact that upon $3,000 á I should like to inquire?
trollers and Auditors, and we confine the year a man occupying their position would Mr. HARLAN.“ I am not able to give pos- amendment simply to that class of officers who have great difficulty in making the ends meet. itive information ; but I think in the latter case are the heads of bureaus in the Treasury De- Now, is it necessary for the United States of the officer resigned because of some misunder-partment; but I should be perfectly willing, if America, in the present condition of affairs, standing between him and the head of the De- any Senator has any doubt about it, to contine to starve out these officers who guard the partment.
it solely to the Comptrollers and Auditors. I Treasury of the nation, who perform the highMr. FESSENDEN. But his salary is higher, will state now the reason why we did not ex: est judicial functions, whose duties every day
tend it to the Assistant Secretary of the Treas- are of the highest importance, and reduce their Mr. HARLAN. Yes; his salary is $4,500 ury and to the Assistant Secretaries of the salaries ? This is not a proposition for an a year. I will say for the information of the various Departments.
increase of salaries. It is a proposition to Senator from New York, that I know that the These Assistant Secretaries do not perform continue the pay that for three years has been late Commissioner of Patents remained in
judicial duties. Their functions, although | given to them with your knowledge and by the office at the request of the head of the Depart- their name is quite high sounding, are far less sanction of law. ment for some time after he had expressed a important than those of the Comptrollers and I submit to Senators whether under these desire, for private reasons, to retire. Auditors.
circumstances you ought to embarrass a propMr. CONKLING. I do not mean to ques
Mr. HARLAN. Allow me to say to the losition of this kind, which has been examined tirn the Senator's statement: on the contrary,
Senator that he errs greatly as to the duties by one of your committees, and made known I agree that that gentleman was a valuable offi- assigned to the Assistant Secretary of the more than a month ago to the Committee on cer, and that his retirement was to be deplored. Interior.
Appropriations, by adding toit other provisions. It has been said--and I was going to remark on
Mr. SHERMAN, I am not speaking of him. Suppose it is true that the Commissioner of that point-that the salary of the Commissioner Mr. HARLAN. His duties require him to the General Land Office, and the Assistant of Patents is $4,500. So it is; and in my opin- supervise, to some extent, the Commissioner Postmasters General, and the Commissioner of ion it is a most exorbitant and unreasonable of the General Land Office and the Commis. Pensions receive too low a salary? By the salary for any services that have been rendered sioner of Pensions.
rule of the Senate you cannot provide for them in that office for a long time. I knew the late Mr. SHERMAN. I am speaking of the in this bill without giving the requisite notice. Commissioner of Patents
very well; I served Assistant Secretaries of the Treasury and the If it is necessary to provide for them, notice with him in the House of Representatives; and Assistant Postinasters General. Senators will
can now be given, and the increase can be I have no hesitation in saying that any individ- remember that the Comptrollers and Auditors voted on the miscellaneous appropriation bill, ual, or any Government which paid to him are really judges. They actually have at times or any of the other appropriation bills that are
is it not?
coming up; but the officers whose cases are $3,500 a year, and there it stands yet. It has poorest clerk; but still there are obligations covered by this amendment have been provided | been filled by Elisha Whittlesey, and by some resting upon him, from the nature of his office, for, according to our rules, by an amendment of the ablest and best men this country has his social duty, his social position, which imcarefully considered, and an amendment wbich ever produced. The salary was established poses upon him an expenditure that is not appeals to the good sense of every Senator. seventy years ago on a gold standard, at $3,500, demanded of others. And, sir, unless you are
There is one other consideration that I desire the same amount that you now pay to R. W. blind to a fact which we know exists at all to suggest. There is already a great jealousy Taylor, when money has not half the purchas- || times and in all ages and among all conditions and a great feeling naturally in the Treasury || able value it had when the salary was fixed. So of men in every form of government, there is
Te role Department ou account of the inequality of with the Auditors; the salary of an Auditor a distinction made in salaries as to the characthe salaries in that Department. The officers was fixed fifty years ago, in 1817, at $3,000. It ter of employment, the nature of the service, the U[ created by recent laws receive higher salaries was then higher than the salary of all
the other the responsibility and the intelligence required ha trei than those whose offices date longer back. For officers around them; but now new offices have for the discharge of the daties. No man is fit instance, the Treasurer of the United States, | been created, new wants have been supplied, to be Comptroller or Auditor who could not in
EO, ani General Spinner, an officer of the highest new salaries have been fixed by law, and in private life, in private business, get a larger character, gets $6,500 a year. Can any man say accordance with the liberal spirit of the times, salary than even the amount you now propose that General Spinner's duties are any more the changed value of money, and the expanded to give.
sol important than those of the First Comptroller wealth of the country, Congress has given more With these considerations I shall leave the of the Treasury, whose signature is required liberal salaries; and now, when these old and matter entirely to the Senate. on every paper ?
faithful oíficers, performing the highest func- Mr. CONNESS. Mr. President, the object Mr. FÈSSENDEN. Let me say to the tions in this Government, come here and ask of the speech made by the honorable Senalor Senator, with regard to the Treasurer, that his to be put upon something like a footing of who has just taken his seat is to show the salary was fixed on an entirely different prin. || equality with those who perform even minor Senate that it should vote to continue, as he ciple"; and that is, his personal responsibility | duties in their own Department, is it worth describes it, the salary to the Comptroller and for money, which is very large, for which he || while to tell them that their pay will keep body | Auditors of the Treasury, to now put in the gives very heavy bond, and it was thought his and soul together? Is it right to say that the form of a regular salary the amount they have salary should be somewhat in proportion to First Comptroller of the Treasury ought not to been heretofore receiving in the shape of sal. that.
receive as much as the Comptroller of the Cur. ary and annual allowance in addition thereto; Mr. SHERMAN. The Senator must not
One controls the whole Treasury, and also to convince the Senate that, in order understand me as complaining of the amount passes upon every account, directly or indi- that that may be done the pending amendment paid to General Spinner, because I think his rectly; the other controls the currency of six: should not be adopted. services are worth to the United States much teen hundred banks. The Commissioner of I listened with some attention to the honmore than his salary.
Internal Revenue collects between two and orable Senator, and I indorse in the most Mr. CHANDLER. Allow me to suggest that three hundred millions of money a year. It thorough manner everything that he said of the Treasurer of the United States gives a bond is a very important office; but the Comptroller | the Comptrollers of the Treasury and the in the amount of $5,000,000.
of the Treasury has to pass upon the accounts justice of allowing them the salary proposed. Mr. SHERMAN. Then I will waive that
for every dollar thus collected, besides all the If my friend were equally candid and equally I have no doubt General Spinner earns other money brought into the Treasury from generous and equally informed (as he may be) in his salary. But take the case of the Comp. customs and other sources.
regard to the duties performed by the Commistroller of the Currency: there is an officer with It seemed to me for these reasons, when this sioner of the General Land Office, I undertake
sell no pecuniary responsibility, who gives no bond. matter came up before the Committee on to say that he would not have made the speech He is a man of unquestioned ability, who has Finance, that this was one of those plain, pal- that he has with the purpose of defeating the risen from a subordinate place in the Depart- pable cases of injustice where, while we did | pending amendment. He has described to us ment until he occupies his present position with not want to enter upon any general indiscrim- the judicial character of the functions perconceded ability. His salary is $5,000. The inate increase of salaries, provision must be formed by the Comptrollers of the Treasury. Commissioner of Internal Revenue has a salary made for the Auditors and Comptrollers. As I agree with him that they are of the most of $6,000. Here are the Commissioner of I said before, if, in the opinion of Senators, important character. I know how earnestly Internal Revenue and the Comptroller of the the Register (who, I concede, is an officer of the honorable Senator from Ohio has spoken Currency, neither of whom performs anything no more importance than the head of a bureau and feels on this question. like the responsible duties of either of the in
other Department) and the Solicitor of I repeat again that I agree with him, but that Comptrollers proper of the Treasury, getting a the Treasury ought not to be included among he does great injustice to the pending propomuch larger salary: Is it not something to a the Auditors and the Comptrollers, strike them sition without, perhaps, intending to do so. man of pride and feeling that those whose off. I do not appear here to plead for the There are no duties performed by the Compaccounts he must supervise, who cannot draw interests of any particular officer; but I do say trollers of the Treasury that transcend in im any money from the Treasury until their judg- that as to the accounting officers you ought to portance the duties performed by the Commisment and their action is passed upon by him, do justice to them, even if you are not ablenow | sioner of the General Land Office. His is should receive a higher salary than he does to do justice to other meritorious officers of the essentially both a judicial and an administrahimself? Is that right? Does it not tend to Government. As soon as we come back to tive position. There is not a preemption claim create that want of esprit du corps, that sense specie payments and lower prices, as soon as belonginging to a citizen in this broad land of wounded honor, which every member of the we settle down upon the peace basis, I have no l that is not passed upon by that officer. There Senate would feel under similar circumstances? | doubt the whole civil list will be revised, and is not a claim for a grant of land but that the Would I be willing to perform at a lower salary these oflicers will be scaled according to the piles and heaps of papers are passed upon by higher duties? Would I be willing that a man nature of their services; but in the mean time him and examined and decided. Millions upon should perform subordinate duties to me, and we ought not to lower the compensation paid millions of dollars worth of property are de that I should supervise and control his conduct, to these high officers; and as we have now termined by that officer constantly and continu
yet he receive a greater salary than I? If taken away from the Secretary of the Treasury | ously; and I think that there is not a Senator 80, it must be an admission on my part that I the power to give them $1,000 a year extra, in Congress, nor a member of the other House, am unlit to receive the salary proportioned to which has been allowed by Secretary Chase, and who would acquaint himself with the duties the duties I perform. That is this case. Secretary FESSENDEN, and Secretary McCul- that officer performs and the manner in which
Go into the other Departments, and you find loch, which enabled the Secretaries to equalize that the heads of bureaus in the War Depart
they are performed and the length of time the salaries to some extent, we ought not to required in their performance, who would not ment now receive uuder law $7,105 a year, and reduce their pay to the injusticeand detriment agree at once to compensate him fairly aud yet every account passed upon by the Quarter- of high officers of the Government, whose enable him to live as a gentleman should. master General, the Paymaster General, the responsibility and integrity no man can ques. But the honorable Senator from Obio depreCommissary General, and the Surgeon Gention or deny.
cates the adoption of this pending amendment eral must pass under the supervision of these I know from men, who would not speak a lest it should affect the amendment he proposed accounting officers of the Treasury Depart- falsehood, that in regard to some of these offi- and which was adopted in committee." I regret ment. These bureau officers are in that sense cers they will not be able to continue in the to see this. I know that it is not in any spirit subordinate, because the accounting officers | discharge of their duties unless they have someperform judicial functions over them, finally thing like a compensation sufficient to main
of defending the officers that belong to the
Treasury Department, but it is because the act on what they do, and yet these bureau tain them with manly and reasonable indeofficers in the War Department receive nearly pendence. Some of these men have large Finance Committee, is so well informed touch
honorable Senator from Ohio, chairman of the twice the compensation of the First Comp- families. You cannot always compare the ing the duties of the officers of the Treasury troller. The reason is this: the first office
exercise of duties by these officers with the created in the Treasury Department after that performance of mere clerical duties, because
Department, with which he is so intimately
connected. of the Secretary of the Treasury was the there are obligations resting on these officers Comptroller of the Treasury. The very name that do not rest on clerks and others.
I might appeal to my friend, the Senator
from Indiana, (Mr. Hendricks, touching the imports the character of the office. The second not be very pleasant, but it is true that official character of the duties and functions performed officers are Auditors. These are independent station brings with it obligations, and
the higher by the Commissioner of the General Land Of judicial officers. They were created a long that station the stronger those obligations are. fice. I think that it is due to all the officers time back. The office of Comptroller was cre. It may cost no more to feed with bread a ated in 1799, and the pay was then fixed at Comptroller of the Treasury than it does the
that we should courageously determine which of them should have an increase of salary, and
give it to them.
There was a proposition Mr. STEWART. I would suggest that in decision in most of the contested or doubtful pending here a while ago that might have been bringing in a proposition for the reduction of the cases is upon the Secretary of the particular adopted to buy $15,000 worth of books, which salaries of members of the Senate, the Senator Department with which the claim is connected. perhaps would never have counted the people enlarge the proposition a little and provide for Take an important claim connected with the or the Government the weight of a straw, which equalizing the incomes of Senators. (Laugh- quartermaster's department; the Quartermaswould make the entire eompensation that is ter. ] We will all vote for it. (Laughter.] ter General decides upon it, and then the Secspoken of for these officers if it had obtained. Mr. RAMSEY. Make a common fund of retary of War decides upon it, and mainly the We vote ten or fifteen thousand dollars away the surplus income. [Laughter.]
labors of the Auditors and Comptrollers are here in many ways, and we refuse to give to Mr. CHANDLER. I understand that my routine. There is not this difference that is the occupants of important offices upon which friend from Nevada has the largest of any one talked about between these officers. I merely the true and honest administration of public here from bis gold mines, and he would prob- rose to say one word for the Solicitor of the affairs, the public revenue and public means de. ably suffer the most. But, sir, this thing has Treasury. I think that is one of the most. pend, and, indeed, by which the public credit got to be stopped, or else we may as well || important offices of the Government. is sustained, a fair compensation for their ser- abandon all restrictions and raise ali salaries Mr. CRAGIN. I should like to suggest to vices. Now, sir, I am not afraid, for one, to in the ratio already applied to some by the the Senator from Indiana one way in which the vote such a compensation upon any or all amendment you have adopted.
Solicitor of the Treasury has been in the habit occasions, and I hope to have the vote of the The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques- of having an increase of salary heretofore. In honorable Senator from Ohio in behalf of the tion is on the amendment to the amendment, a case in the custom-house at Boston, in the pending amendment, and I shall be glad then upon which the yeas and nays have been settlement of a claim there, the collector and to vote for his amendment; but I am not will- ordered.
naval officer I think paid over to Mr. Jordan ing to make "fish of one and flesh of another.'' Mr. CHANDLER. I have voted against all $4,000, which he accepted, whether for serI think that it is time that we dealt with even: advancement, but I shall vote for including in vices or otherwise I do not know, but he cerhandled justice toward the officers engaged in this section all that are offered.
tainly accepted it.
Mr. CRAGIN. The present Solicitor.
Mr. HENDRICKS. I do not choose to vote great injustice is being done by the amend
Doolittle, Drake, Frelinghuysen, Harlan, Hendricks, in regard to fixing permanenily the salaries of ment put on this bill from the Committee on Howard, Johnson, McDonald, Morrill of Verinont, the oflicers of this country on any rumor to Finance. I find that the Assistant Secretary
Nye, Ramsey, Ross, Sherman, Stewart, Sunner,
the prejudice of a particular officer. Thequesof the Treasury, who signs all Treasury war- and Yares--26.
tion is what is the grade of the office, what wants and whose duties are certainly next to NAYS — Messrs. Cole, Cragin, Edmunds, Ferry,
compensation a lawyer who is able to take
Maine, Patterson of
charge of that bureau ought to have. He has and yet you put his subordinates over him in ABSENT-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard, Buckalew, the most important causes to superintend. I point of salary. You put his subordinates at Cameron, . Cattell, Conkling, Dixon, Fessenden, never heard anything against the present Soli
Fowler, Grimes, Henderson, Howe, Morton, Norton.
Mr. CRAGIN. I will state that the fact I by twenty, it may be thirty, perhaps forty of
So the amendment to the amendment was
mentioned is stated in a report of a committee the heads of bureaus in the other Departments | agreed to.
of the House of Representatives, and Mr. of the Government, a very large number, and
Jordan himself has admitted it over and over
Mr. WILSON. they all claim that their duties are as great as
I propose to amend this
Mr. HENDRICKS. Let there be higher
authority than a report of a secret committee me that we must either kill the proposition of Register, and the supervising architect of the
of the House of Representatives. I do not the Committee on Finance or go into a general Treasury.
consider any man's good name damaged much advancement of salaries from the head down
Mr. SHERMAN. You had better leave in
by that. and equalize them. If you raise the salaries | the supervising architect.
Mr. CRAGIN. The testimony of Mr. Jorof these subordinate officers to $4,500 there is
Mr.'WILSON. Very well; I will make the
dan, as reported, shows the fact.
Mr. HENDRICKS. What he said I dare say
would be all right, but I do not speak for him sition to raise the salary of the Assistant Sec
Mr. SUMNER. Why not strike out the || personally. I know but very little about him retary of the Treasury, designated to sign Register alone? Why not take the vote on that personally; but I know that the causes which Treasury warrants to $5,000 a year. Itought to proposition by itself.
are being tried in the courts below are well be. If his subordinates are raised to $4,500, of Mr. WILSON. We may as well vote on prepared in the Department. I have had course his salary should be $5,000. I
suppose both. The Senator who moved this amend- occasion to meet some of them. it is not in order for me now to move that his ment told us that certain officers named in it, The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The quessalary be made $5,000; but I simply state the the Auditors and Comptrollers, had judicial | tion is on the amendment of the Senator from fact that this thing must either be stopped or functions. Certainly the Register of the Treas- Massachusetts [Mr. Wilson] to the amendment be carried out.
ury has not; neither has the Solicitor; and I made as in Committee of the Whole. I have finally come to the conclusion that think they ought to be stricken out at any Mr. CONNESS called for the yeas there is only one remedy for all of this pro
and they were ordered. posed extravagance, and that is to reduce the Mr. SHERMAN. I will make no objection Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I understood salaries of Senators to $3,000, and then claim to the motion.
the Senator who moved the original proposithat no man is entitled to more salary than a Mr. HENDRICKS. Does the Senator from tion, and argued its necessity, to agree to the Senator. Do that, and we shall be able to Massachusetts propose to disallow the Solicitor motion of the Senator from Massachusetts, to stop it; and I shall move to-morrow, if this of the Treasury the same compensation given strike out the Solicitor and Register, and I bill is not passed to-night, that the salaries of to the other persons? There is no question | suppose therefore the Senate will not object members of Congress be reduced to $3,000, that he ought to have as much as the Comp- to that motion. and that that sum be the limit of any subordi- trollers, in my opinion. He must be a man Mr. EDMUNDS. I ask to have the quesnate's pay. Then, sir, I hope we shall be able of education in the law; he ought to be a very tion divided, so as to take the vote separately, to stop this extravagance.
able lawyer, and I believe the present Solicitor first on the Solicitor and then on the Register. Mr. RAMSEY. What will you do with the is. The office of Solicitor of the Treasury, in. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. A division President's salary of $25,000?
my judgment, is a more important office than of the question is called for. The question Mr. CHANDLER. I would cut off his ex- that of the Attorney General. He has more to being divided, the first vote is on the motion tras. The President really receives $56,000 | do with the law business of the Government. to strike out “the Solicitor.'' instead of $25,000. There is no other way but It has become now a great law office, in which The question being taken by yeas and nays, for us to cut down our own salaries, and then the management of the law suits of the Gov- resulted--yeas 19, nays 22; as follows: we shall stop this eternal clamor for advance ernment in all the courts of the United States YEAS-Messrs. Cattell, Conkling, Conness, Cragin, of salaries. We have either got to stop the is prepared and controlled. If there is any
Edmunds, Ferry, Frelinghuysen, Howard, McCreery,
Morgan, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of Vermont, Nye, advance proposed by the Committee on Finance, officer in the Treasury who ought to be dis
Patterson of New Hampshire, Sherman, Stewart, or else advance every grade, provide that the criminated favorably upon it is the Solicitor. Sumner, Wade, and Wilson-19. female clerks, as my friend from Pennsylva- I am not satisfied that there ought to be an
NAYS-Messrs. Chandler, Cole, Corbett, Davis,
Doolittle, Drake, Fessenden, Harlan, Hendricks, nia [Mr. CAMERON] proposed, shall receive the increase of any of these compensations at this
Johnson, McDonald, Ramsey, Ross, Sprague, Thayer, same pay as men who perform the same ser- time; the people are not making any more Tipton, Trumbull, Van Winkle, Vickers, Willey, vice, and that all other clerks be advanced in money than they used to do; but if there is an Williams, and Yates-22.
ABSENT-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard, Buckalew, proportion with those who bave been advanced. increase the Solicitor of the Treasury ought to
Cameron, Dixon, Fowler, Grimes, Henderson, Howe, Carry it out through all the bureaus and De- enjoy it. Three fourths of the business that is Morton, Norton, Patterson of Tennessee, Pomeroy, partments, and I think perhaps five, ten, or transacted by the Auditors is routine, passes
Rice, and Saulsbury-15.
Mr. STEWART. Will the Senator allow me made in the proper Department before the amendment was rejected.
papers go to them. Allowances are made by The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques-
This is the
The question being taken by yeas and nays, Mr. FESSENDEN. I wish to inquire whether are offered to an appropriation bill. Under this
YEAS-Messrs. Cattell, Conkling, Cragin, Davis, not an amendment to the original bill, but an ator from moving to hitch on to such an amend.
amendment to an amendment. I do not un- ment a provision appropriating $1,000,000 ? son of New Hampshire, Sherman, Stewart, Sumner,
derstand that the rule covers an amendment to When you add a new name to the list in this Thaver, Wade, and Wilson--19. NAYS-Messrs. Chandler, Conness, Corbett, Deo proposed to an appropriation bill. This is an
an amendment. It only covers an amendment | amendment you increase the appropriation, Jittle, Drake, Fessenden, Harlan, Hendricks, How
and in fact make a new additional appropria- ng be pare ard, Johnson, McDonald, Ramsey, Ross, Sprague,
amendment to an amendment. I raise that tion. The Senate will see at once that if it is Tipton, Trumbull, Van Winkle, Vickers, Willey, question.
decided that an amendment to an amendment
li seest Howe, Morton, Norton, Patterson of Tennessee, It seems to me that the Senator from Maine in the world for us to upset this whole rale. Pomeroy, Rice, and Saulsbury-16.
aus gues So the second branch of the amendment to
must be correct, because you never can antici- | Suppose, for instance, the Committee on Ap
pate the amendments that may be necessary i propriations should report an amendment the amendment was rejected.
in an amendment. We can anticipate what appropriating $100,000 for the Agricultural Mr. HAKLAN. I move to add the follow- amendments we desire to offer to an appropri- Department, and then the Senator from Illiing words after “Commissioner of General ation bill; but when an amendment is made to
nois, without authority from any committee, Land Office" in the amendment as it stands : it it brings up a new question, and it seems to
should move as an amendment to that amendThe Commissioner of Pensions and the Commis- me it is in order to offer an amendment to that ment an appropriation of $500,000 for the hold of it sioner of Indian Affairs, amendment without giving notice.
increase of the judiciary fund. That would be Mr. WILSON. I ask for the
nays Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. Whatever the perfectly proper according to his doctrine, but
by it this whole rule would be defeated. The yeas and nays were ordered. justify his inference in this case, because the
Mr. TRUMBULL, I do not know that Mr. HENDRICKS. Can there be a sepa. amendment here has offered no new light, I there is any question before the Senate. If ration of the proposition? take it, to any of the propositions
there is I should like to reply to the Senator The PRESIDENT protempore. I supposeso: Mr. TRUMBULL. Certainly it is.
from Ohio. Mr. HENDRICKS. I call for a division of Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I cannot con. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. There is the question. I think the office of Commis- ceive that it has. It has not changed the char: nothing before the Senate unless the amendsioner of Indian Affairs is a very important one. acter of the service at all.
ment. The other is merely clerical; anybody can Mr. TRUMBULL, I have voted for three Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I appeal, and decide whether disability accrued because of or four amendments to the amendment that I wish to say a word on that question. service or not. never would have voted for as independent
Mr. SHERMAN. The Chair has not decided The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques. || propositions. I werely voted for them as
it, as I understand. tion being divided, the first vote is on inserting | amendments to the original amendment.
Mr. TRUMBULL. The Chair has de " the Commissioner of Pensions.'
Mr. FESSENDEN. I should like to have
cided The question being taken by yeas and days, the rule read.
The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair resulted-yeas 21, nays 19; as follows:
The Chief Clerk read the last clause of the has intimated the opinion that an amendment YEAS-Messrs. Chandler, Corbett, Doolittle, Drake, thirtieth rule, as follows:
to an amendment does not come within the Fessenden, Harlan, Howard, Johnson, McDonald,
rule relating to amendments being referred Nye, Patterson of New Hampshire, Ramsey, Sprague,
“All amendments to general appropriation bills Stewart, Tipton, Trumbull, Van Winkle, Vickers, reported from committees of the Senate, proposing
to the Committee on Appropriations. The Willey, Williams, and Yates-21.
new items of appropriation, shall, one day before question had better be settled. NAYS-Messrs. Cattell, Cole, Conkling, Conness,
they are offered. be referred to the Committee on Mr. SHERMAN. With perfect respect, I Cragin, Davis, Edmunds, Ferry, Frelinghuysen.llend. Appropriations." rieks, McCreery, Morgan, Morrill of Maine, Morrill
take an appeal from the decision of the Chair,
Mr. FESSENDEN. Our rule has been ihat of Vermont, Sherman, Sumner, Thayer, Wade, and
because it virtually upsets the rule. no amendment should be received to an approWilson-19.
Mr. TRUMBULL. Then I suppose it is in ABSENT-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard. Buckalew, priation bill increasing the appropriations unCameron, Dixon, Fowler, Grimes, Henderson, Howe,
order to reply to the Senator from Ohio. less it was offered from a committee ; but that Morton, Norton, Patterson of Tennessee, Pomeroy,
The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques. Rice, Ross, and Saulsbury-16.
rule was never held to apply to an amendment tion is, Shall the decision of the Chair stand as So the first branch of the amendment to the to an amendment. If a committee offered an
the judgment of the Senate? amendinent was agreed to.
amendment, which brought the case within Mr. TRUMBULL, This is a new rule; anditis The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques
the rule, it was always held to be in order for the first time we have ever had a practical appli
a Senator to move an amendment to that tion is on the second clause of the amendment,
cation of it to any extent. We have always amendment, because it was no part of the bill. to insert - the Commissioner of Indian Af.
been able to get along very well without such
Mr. EDMUNDS. What would the rule fairs.
a rule. The Senator from Ohio, after adopt. amount to if you could get around it all the The question being taken by yeas and nays,
ing a new rule, is for giving it an application time in that way? resulted--yeas 20, nays 20; as follows:
that would prevent the Senate from amending
Mr. FESSENDEN. Then make your rule an amendment. It would be like the previous YEAS-Messrs. dler, Cole, Corbett, Doolittle, Drake, Harlan, Hendricks, Howard, McDonald, so that we cannot get around it.
question here in the Senate. An amendment Nyo. Ramsey, Ross, Sprague, Tipton, Trumbull, Van Mr. EDMUNDS. That seems impossible. is intended to be proposed by some Senator, Winkle, Vickers, Willey, Williams, and Yates--20. Mr. FESSENDEN. The ruling has always NAYS-Messrs. Cattell, Conkling. Conness, Cra
and he sends it quietly to the Committee on gin, Davis, Edmunds, Ferry, Fessenden, Frelinghuy
been that where a committee offered au amend. Appropriations. Neither the Senator from sen, McCreery, Morgan, Morrill of Maine, Morrill of ment, an amendment might be offered by any. Ohio nor myself have ever heard of it. It Vermont, Patterson of New Hampshiro, Sherman,
body to that amendment increasing the amount Stewart, Sumner, Tbayer, Wade, and Wilson-20,
comes into the Senate here for the first time, ABSENT-Messrs. Anthony, Bayard, Buckalew, or doing anything else. Now, we have a rule and we are to take that precisely as it is
pre. Cameron, Dixon, Fowlor, Grimes, Henderson, Howe, that an amendment must be referred to the sented, and we cannot move to amend it; that Johnson, Morton, Norton, Patterson of Tennessee, Committee on Appropriations a day before. Pomeroy, Rice, and Saulsbury-16.
18 to say, we are to take the sum as proposed. hand. When that has been done, and the So the second clause of the amendment to
Mr. SHERMAN. This point of order amendment is offered in the Senate, why canthe amendment was rejected.
made upon the old rule. The objection now notanybody offer an amendment to that amend- mnade does not come under the new rule. The Mr. WILLIAMS. move to amend the ment, which then for the first time comes before objection now made is that the amendment of amendment by insertiug just preceding the || -the Senate?
the Senator from Oregon does not come from amendment proposed by the Senator from The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Chair any standing committee. That is the objection Iowa the words * the Assistant Secretary of is of opinion that an amendment to an amend- of the Senator from Maine, and it is an objecthe Interior.''
ment does not come within the provision of tion made under the old rule. Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I would like the rule. Any Senator may offer an amend. Mr. TRUMBULL. We have been discussing to have the Senator state on what authority he ment to an amendment without submitting it it with regard to the point whether it came moves that. to the Committee on Appropriations.
within the new rule.
Now, if the Senator puts Mr. WILLIAMS. I propose this amend- Mr. CONNESS. If it increases the amount his appeal upon some other ground, it is a ment upon the same authority the other amend. of appropriation. Is that the decision? change of front. Inents have had for their support. They were The PRESIDENT pro tempore. In the
Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I stated dispropositions made by individual members of opinion of the Chair, that does not make any tinctly at first that that was the groupd I put the Senate.
difference in the case of an amendment to an it on, though I did not get an Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. They were in- amendinent.
state it very fully. structed to move those by committees, and Mr. SHERMAN. There is one view of this Mr. TRUMBULL. The principle would be notice was given. The Senator's motion is matter which I wish to present to the Senate. not in accordance with the rule, I submit. Each name inserted here increases the appro
the same, I suppose; but the ground upon which Mr. CONKLING. Neither were the others; priation, because the section as I offered it stood, was that the proposition was not in order
it was argued by the Senator from Ohio, I underthey were not referred to our committee.
makes an appropriation to pay the increase of under the new rule. But suppose you take it Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. Yes, they were salary. This is a very important rule; and if under the old rule, was it ever the understandlaid on the table yesterday and referred to our you allow this proceeding it upsets the whole ing in the Senate that is an amendment was committee.
rule. Amendments of a legislative character moved by a committee a Senator could not
move an amendment to it? That was never my the forms required, appropriating so much | gentlemen coolly propose, by a literal con.
of business, we must hold that this is not in Mr. FESSENDEN. I am so much alarmed Mr. CONKLING. Will the Senator allow l order..
as to my salary being cut down for disagreeing me to make a suggestion to him on that point? Mr. EDMUNDS. This is a question of a with the honorable Senator from Vermont that It seems to me it does not amount to the pre- great deal of practical importance, and I hope I am going to say a word or two. vious question. An amendment, notice having Senators will give it sufficient attention to Mr. EDMUNDS. You are not a judge ; I been given, and it being in order, is under con- deeide it according to the real merit that it spoke about a judge. sideration. Anybody may move to amend may have, because the decision now made will Mr. FESSENDÈN. You said "lawyer or that amendment, so that his amendment does | stand as the construction of the rule for all judge." I used to be a lawyer, and therefore not amount to a further proposition to appro- other cases. The particular item upon which 1 may come, perhaps, within the description. priate; but the moment he offers an amend. we are now engaged is not of so much practical I raised this question for the sake of having ment of that particular kind, the rule takes consequence, but of course this settles the it settled by the Senate, and I have been thinkhold of it. If a Senator gives notice of an meaning of the rule, and if the meaning of the ing of it before. The old rule was that an amendment to increase a salary, when his rule be gettled in the manner that the Chair | amendment increasing an appropriation could amendment comes up I may move to increase indicates his construction is, it is equivalent to || only be moved in a certain way, among others, it still more, or I may move to reduce it, be- a repeal of the rule, because that construction by permission or direction of a committee of cause that is all germane; but when I come to permits the rule to be overborne indirectly, the Senate. If I remember rightly, under that propose as an independent proposition to give | when directly the rule absolutely prohibits the role, when such a motion was made by a com. some other man an increased salary, to put in increase of the amount appropriated in an mittee it was then at the mercy of the Senate, some further appropriation, but putting it in appropriation bill unless you go through with and anybody might offer an amendment to that the parliamentary form of an amendment to certain forms. If there was any value in hav. putting on an additional appropriation if he his amendment, then I submit that the spiriting this rule and we have had it now for saw fit. I may be wrong in my recollection ; of the rule attaches to it, and ought to attach eighteen years as a necessary rule in this body- || but that is my recollection of the practice. If to it if the rule is to mean anything, just as that this taking of money out of the Treasury the practice is otherwise, my argument fails. much as it would if I waited till be sat down to pay for particular items of appropriation The Chief Clerk undoubtedly will know better and proposed the same words in an independ should always be considered first in a com. than most of us whether I ain right or not in ent amendment.
mittee, so that there might be a careful invest- that particular. Mr. TRUMBULL. That is a refinement || igation of the proofs and grounds on which Now, here comes another clause, and that is upon the rule that I think cannot be sustained. the appropriation should go, then I say that that no such amendment shall be offered unless The Senator from New York admits that if it is of a great deal of consequence that we it has been submitted to the Committee on notice of an amendment is given to increase should adhere to that spirit, and that is cer- Appropriations a day beforehand. That apthe appropriation, it would be competent, when tainly the spirit and object and groundwork of parently stands in precisely the same position, that amendment came up, for a member of the rule.
and would be subject to the same rules of the Senate to move to change that particular Now, it is claimed by the Senator from practice that the other is. And yet I cannot sum, to reduce it or to increase it, but he | Illinois, that inasmuch as he can by the form help seeing that the effect of it, if carried to cannot move to amend it in any other respect. of proceeding, not the substance of proceeding, that extent, is substantially to defeat the rule, That is not the meaning of the rule that he but by the mere form of proceeding, evade the and that the better construction would be that may amend it in one way and not in another. letter of the rule in the strictest and most any amendment to an amendment of that na.
Dr. CONKLING. The Senator hardly does technical parliamentary sense, that gives him ture proposing to increase appropriations or to me justice in saying that I contend that we the right to swing around the substance and make new items of appropriation ought not to cannot amend it in any other respect. I do defeat it entirely. That I deny. In every | be allowed, because the result of it would be, pot say that. I only suggest to him that when sense except the mere technical one I am as Senators can readily see, to destroy the he comes to move to amend it in the particular speaking of, in every sense that we should act operation of the rule, and I do not see any difrespect of proposing a new and independent on in construing a statute, the term amend- ficulty that wouid come pratically from followappropriation, then it falls not only within the ment to an appropriation bill or to any other | ing the rule; for if Senators desire to put any. spirit, but as I submit to him, within the letter bill includes the whole series of amendments, thing of that sort in they ought to give notice of the rule.
an amendment to an amendment, and an of it beforehand. Mr. TRUMBULL. The precise point is amendment to that, if parliamentary usage Still I revert to that original position that if here: the Senator from Ohio originally moves would permit you to go as far. They all belong we follow the analogy of the former practice to increase the salary of the Comptrollers of to the bill, but in different degrees ; each is the of the Senate under the old rule, any amendthe Treasury. I understood the Sevator from link in the chain that connects the remotest ment may be proposed to an amendment to a New York to admit that it would be compe- one to the bill. So that in any general and fair | bill; and when you come to look at the phitent for the Senator from Oregon to move to sense of the use of language an amendment to losophy of the thing it may be proper. A bill increase the salary of the Comptrollers still an amendment is just as much a proposed is before the Senate; it is printed and laid on more. Then the Senator from Ohio proposes amendment to a bill as the first amendment is. the table, and every Senator can examine it. to increase that appropriation, but he insists The mere technical difference is purely the If he desires to make an amendment to it, he that we cannot move to add to it the Assistant form of coming at it.
ought to know it in season, and the rule proSecretary of the Treasury or any other officer. The question is whether the Senate is determ- || vides that he shall put that amendment in I should like to know why not? What prin | ined, in order to adhere to what appears to be proper shape and have it referred to the Comciple is in that if we can increase the same? a literal form in that narrow sense, to over- mittee on Appropriations. But the Senate is
ME SHERMAN. I should like to ask my throw the whole substance of the provision of not bound to take notice of all the amendments frieno a question. Suppose, in pursuance of
this rule. I do not think there is a Senator thus presented. They are not printed; they notice, an amendment is offered in the regular who hears me who is a lawyer or a judge, if go directly to the Committee on AppropriaWay to appropriate $100,000 for the improve- this were a statute and he were on the bench, tions ; nobody knows anything about them; inent of the harbor of Chicago. That is an would not feel bound to declare that an amend. and then they come in here in the ordinary amendment of which due notice has been inent to an amendment in this narrow and way. Senators do not have the same notice given. Suppose, as an amendment to that || verbal sense in which we are now speaking of them that they have of the original bill. amendment, some one should propose an
of it was in substance and reality an amend- Therefore the reasoning would not seem to appropriation of $500,000 for the improve. ment proposed to the principal thing. If there apply to them. Still I see what the effect ment of the harbor of Milwaukee. There is is any such person, I venture to say that his sal- would be of the construction which I think, in an amendment to an amendment, but it is an ary ought to be reduced, instead of increased, on analogy to the old rule, the Chair has correctly amendment proposing an increased appropria the first appropriation bill that shall come up. put on this rule, and that is, that any amendtion. Is not that within the rule?'
One of the first rules of construction in all inent may be offered to an amendment. If the Mr. CONKLING. Allow me to suggest civilized courts is that you shall not adhere to Senate choose to correct that, and say that that it proposes not merely, as the Senator the letter to the injury of the substance, that under this new rule it shall not be allowed, I from Ohio says, an increase of the appropria- you are to look through the mere shell of
shall have no regrets about it, because the tion, but, in the language of the rule, new phraseology to the real purpose and design of rule will then be made absolute. item of appropriation. That is the point, a This statute of your body, as it is one, in order Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not suppose when new item of appropriation.
to reach its true construction. This purpose I proposed this amendment that it was strictly Mr. TRUMBULL. But it is an amendment aud design was to prevent the attaching to in accordance with the rule; but I expected to an amendment, and not an amendment to appropriation bills of new items of expend- that its justice would commend itself so to the the bill.
iture, increasing the price or cost to the peo- Senate that no objection would be made, for Mr. SHERMAN. This is precisely that ple, until those proposals should have been the very palpable reason that the Commissioner
Here is an amendment that has been subjected to the careful and rigid scrutiny of of the General Land Office has bad his salary carefully considered, that has gone through all Il a committee. That was the object, and yet Il raised, and the Commissioner of Pensions has
ver had a poc
le. The object
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