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I leave that in the hands of the Sen- Mr. SUMNER. To make reports to the disturbed. The First Assistant Secretary would

If the Senate think it advisable now to Secretary of State on all these claims as they naturally give up his otiice with the adminisstop that appropriation and to destroy that are presented from time to time, day by day, tration. He is always supposed to be in pecalittle oflice I shall interpose no serious objec- and then they are presented to Congress. There liar personal and political relations with the tion. I do not think it advisable to make the are two or three bills that I have reported from Secretary of State, and of course he would change at this moment. I would not recom- the Committee on Foreign Relations within a share the fortunes of that functionary. But it mend it myself until there was a systematic | short time founded on these very inquiries; need not be so with the Second Assistant Seceffort to establish a statistical bureau in the one growing out of a claim under the mixed retary; and, indeed, I think for the public Treasury Department to which this might be commission of the United States and Peru that interests it should not be so. transferred. But this may be abandoned with- sat two years ago; another, a claim of a col- If I add to these remarks something of what out any serious detriment to the public busi- ored person in the island of Nassau, who ren- I said yesterday, that in all other departments

The State Department will not suffer. dered important assistance to one of our of the Government, though there may not be Therefore, I shall say no more about it. cruisers through which a prize was captured by name two assistant secretaries, there are

But when we come to the two other offices, of some seventy thousand dollars in value. officers who in the service they render are practhe examiner of claims and the Second As- That was presented to the State Department. tically assistant secretaries of the department, sistant Secretary of State, there I have to say Mr. FESSENDEN. Then there are the I shall complete, I think, the argument for that the proposed change cannot be made with- claims also to carry out the decrees of the retaining this office. out serious detriment to the public service. United States courts.

Mr. HOWE. If this amendment moved by The Senator from New York [Mr. Conkling] Mr. SUMNER. Then there were another the Senator from Massachusetts could be so seems to have a very inadequate idea of the class of claims to which the Senator from Maine modified as to save so much of the section services rendered by the examiner of claims. calls attention, with regard to which there are which the amendment of the committee proSince his remarks yesterday I have made fur. two or three bills now on the Calendar, in order poses to repeal as provides for a Second Assist. ther inquiry with regard to those services, and to carry out decrees of the Supreme Court of ant Secretary of State, and would still rid us all the testimony that I can obtain is that they the United States, the district court at New of the employment of this clerk of claims, I are of great importance to the public interests. York, and the district court at New Orleans. should apply to my chief, the chairman of the Indeed, I doubt if the business at the State Mr. HOWE. They are sent here.

Committee on Appropriations, for leave to Department, or much of it in which our fel- Mr. SUMNER. Not at all. They are sent support the amendment. low.citizens are interested, could move easily to the Department of State, and by the Secre. Mr. HENDRICKS. I have drawn up an and smoothly without some such office as that. tary of State they are referred to the examiner | amendment for that purpose, and if the SenThat office was created after a discussion run- of claims, who makes a report on the facts ator will allow me I will offer tbe amendment. ning over two or three years, in which many that the Secretary may be able to judge what Mr. HOWE. Certainly, if it is in order. Senators took part. I did not myself vote for he shall do with regard to them. It is to this Mr. HENDRICKS. I offer the following it, or come into its support in any way, except officer that complicated papers of all kinds and | amendmentafter the most careful inquiry. I satisfied my. inquiries are referred by the Secretary. Take The PRESIDENT pro tempore. There are self two years before that office was created these very questions of naturalization; take the two amendments pending now. that it ought to be created ; that there was need case of Father McMahon and the case of John Mr. HENDRICKS. I propose to amend of such an office in the Department of State. Lynch: I find that going through the papers the matter proposed to be stricken out, and it Finally it was created ; and now I understand that all the papers relating to those two cases is in order to perfect it before it is stricken the Senator from New York to ask for evidence went through the hands of this examiner of out. of the importance or of the necessity of that claims, who made an abstract of the papers Mr. HOWARD. Let it be read, that we office? What evidence would he have? He and a report upon them.

may see what it is. has the testimony of the Committee on Foreign Mr. HOWE. Who is he?

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It will be Relations, charged with the special considera

Mr. SUMNER. Mr. E. Peshine Smith, of | read for information. tion of this question. I believe they were New York. I believe the services are of great

The Chief Clerk read the proposed amendunanimous originally in the recommendation value. I think the business of the Department ment of Mr. HENDRICKS, which was to insert made two or three years ago, and they are now would halt without such a person there.

after the word "that," in line three hundred unanimous in thinking it expedient that the But the Senator from New York told us that and fifty-seven, the words " so much of,'' and office should be preserved. What more would

this gentleman was about to leave. Of that he after the word “purposes," in line three hunthe Senator have? If I might venture my own has, I am inclined to think, exclusive inform- dred and sixty-two, to insert the words as personal testimony I do not know that it would ation. At any rate, I have never heard of it || authorizes the appointment of an examiner be any reënforcement to that of the committee, before; and on inquiry this morning of the

of claims for the Department of State;" so and yet circumstances have given me some person who ought to be best informed 'I found that the latter portion of the proviso would opportunities of knowing the course of busithat he had no such information. But

read: ness there and the important duties discharged whether he is about to leave or not is a matter

And also that so much of the second section of the

act of July 25, 1866, entitled "An act making approby this officer. I consider him essential to the of indifference. The office should be pre- priations for the consular and diplomatic expenses business of the Department.

served. If he leaves, then I trust we shall of the Government for the year ending 30th June, Mr. EDMUNDS. Tell us a little of the find some person who will be a proper suc.

1867, and for other purposes, as authorizes the details of what he does. I do not understand it.

appointment of an examiner of claims for the De

partment of State, be, and the same are hereby. Mr. SUMNER. Since the war and during And this brings me to the other case, of the repealed. the war there was a large number of claims Second Assistant Secretary of State. I need Mr. HENDRICKS. If the Senator will against our Government much beyond what || hardly add anything to what was said yesterday || allow me, I will explain the effect of that propohad ever been at any time before, so large in 80 well by different Senators. It is within the sition. number, so extensive in amount, so important knowledge of all that this office was created The PRESIDENT pro tempore. Does the to the claimants that they required very great for Mr. Hunter, believing that it would furnish Senator from Wisconsin give way for an explanattention.

a field for the exercise of his talents and of his lation? Mr. HOWE. Where did they come from? peculiar experience, and also that he deserved Mr. HOWE. Yes, sir; but I think I under

Mr. SUMNER. From every source, North, | this promotion. It surely was not a very large stand it. East, West, and South, growing out of the war, promotion for one who had at that time given Mr. HENDRICKS. The same section progrowing out of the action of British cruisers,

nearly forty years of his life to the public ser- vides for the Second Assistant Secretary of growing out of the enforcement of the rights | vice; but it would be very hard at this time to State that provides for this examiner. My of war, claims upon our Government, claims | deprive him of this rather small promotion, amendment proposes to strike out so much of of our own citizens directly on our Government, where I am sure he is rendering ellicient ser: that section as authorizes the appointment other claims of our citizens on foreign Gov. vice to the country.

of that examiner of claims. I have not any ernments.

The Senator from Maine [Mr. FESSENDEN] | thought that that office is of any consequence Mr. HOWE. By what law does the State

reminded me yesterday that in other countries at all to the public service, and therefore I wish Department take jurisdiction of those claims

there were usually two Assistant Secretaries to strike it out. on our Government? Mr. SUMNER. They are claims that arise

of State, or Assistant Secretaries of Foreigu Nor do I believe in the doctrine of the Sen

Affairs. This is particularly the case in England. ator from Massachusetts, that there are any such under the office of the Department of State. One of those goes out with the administration; dark places in the Departments as that a man However, those are very small; I merely the other remains to continue, if I may so of ability cannot master their duties in a very allude to them. The great body of our claims express myself, the traditions of the office. short time. I believe anybody with force of grow out of our relations with foreign Powers. He is not regarded as a political character, and character, intelligence, and education can go

Mr. HOWE. I wish the Senator would he holds under all administrations one after into that Department and understand all about explain a little of the nature of those claims, the other. I think that in the conduct of our it in a reasonable time. I do not believe in and how the Department gets jurisdiction of public affairs there is some reason why such the idea that all the wisdom of the age and all them to adjust them.

an officer should exist among us. I think he the efficiency of the public service are going to Mr. SUMNER. I am not aware that the may be useful; and I hope now we may set an pass away with Mr. Hunter. But, sir, ConState Department has undertaken to adjust || example of that stability in the Department gress, after careful and full debate a year or them.

of State that will make this office permanent; two ago, decided upon this office for the express Mr. HOWE. Then what are the duties of so that amid all the vicissitudes of politics purpose of making provision for him; and I shis officer?

this Second Assistant Secretary may remain un. know no reason now for reversing that action.


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We decided then to provide this office for him. and also of John Lynch, who were proceeded Mr. CONKLING. I did not say he was. That was a thing decided, and I am in favor | against in Canada.

The Senator, in answer to my honorable friend of letting it stand decided.

Mr. HENDRICKS. I was not aware that from Indiana, adduced the Alabama case, Mr. SUMNER. Allow me to suggest that those cases fell under the description of claims. which everybody conceived to be the compliCongress at the same time, in the 'same sec- Mr. SUMNER. The Senator is aware that cated case, if there was any truth in this idea tion, gave the same decision with regard to the I said that inquiries which did not properly that we needed such an officer, because it is examiner of claims, and after a most careful belong to any clerk were, by the Secretary of the conspicuous instance of claims of a characinquiry. The Senator says be does not believe State, handed to him. But then I do not wish te falling within the purview of the State Dethe office is necessary. If that Senator would to be carried into any wrangle on this subject; partment. The Senator, therefore, instanced tell me that he had taken the trouble to inquire | I am only here in the discharge of my duty. I that case as showing the overmastering importinto the business of the Department, and on have stated my information.

ance of this officer, with prolonging whose life inquiry had satisfied himself that this office was Mr. HENDRICKS. The Senator carried he has been charged, he says, by his commitnot necessary, I should be willing to accept his me into a wrangle by saying I knew nothing tee. Now, then, the inquiry being put as to judgment; but he will pardon me if I say

that about it, and I wanted to see what the Senator what has been done in that one case, it turns I do not think that on this question the divina- knew,

out, as far as the Senator has gone, that a very tion of the Senator can be set against the knowl- Mr. CONKLING. I ask the Senator from able man has been reviewing and abstracting edge and testimony of others who have made Indiana to let me interpose, if there is any the correspondence; has been doing that whatthemselves acquainted with it.

danger of a wrangle. Will the Senator from ever it may beMr. HENDRICKS. This much I do know, || Massachusetts be kind enough to enlighten me Mr. SUMNER. The Senator is entirely misthat when there is a Bureau of Statistics in one upon this point ? Under the examination of taken in supposing that that belonged to the Department we do not need another. All this the Senator from Indiana, who, he says, does duties of the examiner of claims. The exam. information ought to go there.

not know anything about this, he has cited one 'iner of claims, as I understand his duties, was Mr. SUMNER. I say nothing about the case in which the examiner of claims has to consider the claims as presented by AmeriBureau of Statistics. The question now is as been a useful man—the case of the Alabama can citizens to the Department of State. Mr. to the examiner of claims. You observe, under claims. Without professing to know anything | Bemis, as I have always understood, devoted this amendment of the committee, there are about it, and appealing to the fountain of light | himself to perusing the correspondence that three different offices that are touched ; one is on this subject, I ask the Senator from Massa- had passed between the Department of State the clerkship of statistics, then there is the chusetts to state anything that the examiner and Mr. Adams relating to the great principles examiner of claims, then the Second Assistant of claims has done that , except

involved in those claims. Secretary of State. I say nothing about. the clerkship of statistics, because if the Senate I ask him also whether it is not true that an supposing that the Senator from Massachusetts choose to sacrifice that I say it can be done accomplished lawyer from his own city has cited the Alabama claims as the instance in without detriment to the public service; but I been here for long periods of time to deal which this officer had been so valuable? do not think that you can sacrifice either of the with, and has dealt with, those Alabama Mr. SUMNER. I cited that as one instance. other offices without mischief.

claims, and dealt with them exclusively, so far I hope my friend will pardon me. I do not Mr. HENDRICKS. The Senator has called as professional treatment is concerned. If care about prolonging the discussion. in question my knowledge of the labors of this what I say be true, then I wish to submit to Mr. CONKLING. In answer to that, to gentleman. I will ask the Senator from Mas- the Senator, as well as a man who does not trespass one moment further upon the courtesy sachusetts whether he has made any report of know anything about this is permitted to do, of my friend from Indiana, I beg to say this : his labors, whether it has been communicated that he does not make any case by that item I have heard the Senator from Massachusetts to Congress, and whether, indeed, the chair. of evidence showing the utility, even in the past repeat a great many times that the Committee man of the Committee on Foreign Relations while war claims were accumulating, of con- on Appropriations had acted in the dark, himself knows anything about them? Of course | tinuing this officer.

taken a step in the dark; and then I have I have not gone into his office and sat beside Mr. SUMNER. The Senator inquires with heard him repeat as often expressions indicahis desk. I do not kuow personally by obser- regard to an eminent lawyer from Boston, who, tive of the painful labor, the procrastinating vation what he has done. will ask the Sen.

on my invitation, came to Washington, and at and attenuated attention which he had bestowed ator whether he has made that sort of observa. his own charge volunteered his services to the upon subjccts of this sort, and the methodical, tion, or whether there is any public report of State Department, not, as the Senator from New the conclusive, the infallible manner in which bis labors which enables us to know anything York imagines, to go over the claims of Amer. he had reached the opinion which he expressed. about them?

ican citizens on Great Britain-not at all; he Now, he says he does not wish to be drawn Mr. SUMNER. I answer frankly and fully || has not looked at one of them, to the best of into anything of this sort with me, and a while to the Senator that I have, to the best of my my knowledge, but to review the correspond. || ago he said that he did not wish to wrangle ability, made that inquiry. My inquiry and ence between the two Governments relating to

with the Senator from Indiana. With him we observation have extended now over two or the great principles of international law in- all know it is very hard to wrangle, because it three years. volved in that inquiry.

takes two to wrangle, and he is usually not Mr. HENDRICKS. I will ask the Senator Mr. CONKLING. I will inquire of the one of the two who do that business. But I what the labors have resulted in?

Senator whether Mr. Bemis did not make the submit to the Senate, with great respect, that Mr. SUMNER. They have resulted in facili- brief, and the only brief I have heard of, that || it will hardly do for any man to rise here and, tating iminensely the business of the State ever has been made, representing the position ex cathedra, express opinions of this sort, and Department. of our Government upon those claims?

put down the report of a committee, and then Mr. HENDRICKS. That is very general. Mr. SUMNER. I am not aware that Mr. decline to state what the facts are that he has What have they done?

Bemis has made any brief upon the subject. I picked up in the long process through which Mr. SUMNER. We will take the claims on hear it now for the first time, though my intiEngland for spoliations on our commerce. macy with him is great.

I believe, after hearing the honorable SenaThose have all been presented to the State Mr. CONKLING. It is possible I char- tor, that this office in the State Department, Department.

acterize it in the wrong way. Has anybody looking to the future, is wholly useless ; and Í Mr. HENDRICKS. The old French spo- ever inade, to the Senator's knowledge, any believe the Senator would be utterly unable, liation claims?

stateinent upon paper, any codification, any on the stand as a witness, or in his place as a Mr. SUMNER. Oh, no; the English, the exhibition upon paper, whatever the proper Senator, to respond to intelligent questions in Alabama claims, the Shenandoah claims, the term may be, representing the position of this | such a way as to show, within his own knowlStonewall claims, growing out of depredations | country upon those claims as the State Depart- edge, any reason whatever for retaining this on our commerce during the rebellion. Those ment view it, except Mr. Bemis ?

otticer. He has cited one instance, that of the claims, as the Senator is aware, are multitu. Mr. SUMNER. I am not aware that Mr. Alabama claims, which, as I understand it, is dinous. Their name is legion. They have been Bemis has done it. I hear it for the first time, a most striking illustration of the want of auy presented, on the invitation of the Department though my relations with him were almost | utility in this officer in question. And now, of State, to that Department. It has been the daily while he was here in Washington. when I press it a little, without meaning any duty of this examiner to arrange them and put Mr. CONKLING. Shall we understand, disrespect to him, ofcourse, he declines because them in condition for action. They have been then, from the Senator that Mr. Bemis confined | he does not wish to be drawn into & wrangle made the basis, as the Senator is aware, of an himself to perusing this correspondence ? with one Senator, nor into the answering of extensive correspondence with the British Gov. Mr. SUMNER Mr. Benis perused the cor. unncecessary questions of another. ernment, part of wbich has been communi. respondence and made his own abstract of it. My understanding is that Mr. Bemis is the cated to Congress, and some of it is still Mr. CONKLING. " Abstract!” That is man to whom was committed the perusal, the uncommunicated. That is one very consider- a word with which I was not familiar. [Laugh. || codification of this correspondence, the man able item of his duties; and beyond that, as I ter.] That is the word I ought to have to whom was committed the solution of those am informned, whenever an inquiry occurs which employed.

questions upon which the claims of all the claimdoes not properly belong to one of the clerks Mr. SUMNER, The Senator and myself | ants depended; and it is to that I was calling the of the Department, out of the ordinary run, it do not understand each other. I am not aware attention of the Senate and of the Senator. I is coinmitted to this examiner of claims; and, that Mr. Bemis has performed there any func- certainly do not wish to pursue the subject if as I bave already said, I have had occasion, tion that belonged to the examiner of claims; | he does not; but I beg to say to him that he within twenty-four hours, to read his report on that he was in any respect an examiner of will find more willing hearers than I am if he the evidence in the case of Father McMahon, ll claims.

finds Senators who will take in the lump these

he has gone.


stately phrases which the Senator employs tary of State has nothing to do with them, the Indiana because I understand it effects just with a view to convincing the Senate that he examiner has nothing to do with them, no what I desire to see effected, the retention of knows more about this matter than anybody business with them ; they cannot appropriate this Second Assistant Secretary of State, and else. I say to him frankly that I do not believe a dollar ; they cannot adjudicate a dollar; it the dismissal of the examiner of claims. it, and he must not expect me to do so until is outside of their jurisdiction altogether. If Mr. FESSENDEN. Mr. President, I still he furnishes some evidence.

this officer is supposed to have relation to remain of the opinion that this examiner of Mr. HOWE. Mr. President

claims on the part of our Government against claims ought not to be dispensed with. Of Mr. HENDRICKS. Will the Senator allow foreign Govern:nents, then I have to say that course it is a matter of no interest to me parme one minute further?

the Secretary of State himself is that exa liner ticularly. I bad something to do, I think, at Mr. HOWE. I have heard three speeches and nobody else; and we have not authorized the time with passing the law providing for an since I got the floor, but I have no objection | any substitution, and we should not authorize examiner of claims, and I came to the concluto hearing another.

any substitution. If there is any high and sion at that time that it was necessary to have Mr. HENDRICKS. I merely wish to ex: sacred duty belonging to that officer, it is that; such an officer, more from what was said to plain my amendment very briefly. By insert- and to substitute Mr. E. Peshine Smith for me by the Secretary of State on the subject ing after the word "that the words

so much

Mr. William H. Seward, although it might be than by anything that I could know about the of,'' it will prevent the repeal of the whole a good substitution, until it is authorized by || State Department. second section of the act of July 25, 1866; the appointing power, I think it had better not The Senator from Wisconsin [Mr. Howe) is and then by inserting the other words after be provided for by the appropriating depart- | right in his supposition as to what must be the the word purposes it will effect the repeal || ment of the Government. If it be neither the nature of these claims, as a general rule, and of that part which provides for the examiner one nor the other of those classes of claims, the kind of service which has to be done, and of claims.

but it be claims of individual citizens which in supposing that it is a service absolutely to be Now, I wish to say, in reply to the Senator they wish to urge upon the attention of foreign performed, in the last instance, by the Secrefrom Massachusetts, with the indulgence of the Governments through the State Department, tary of State himself. It not infrequently Senator from Wisconsin, that the labor upon it is plainly the business of the claimant him. happens and must happen in Departments of the Alabama claims is without value, in my self to prepare a statement of his claim, to set the Government having a great deal of business judgment, in the very nature of the case, for forth the grounds upon which it rests, to make before them that, while they have to decide the reason that when we shall arrive at that up his own briefs or to make up his own upon claims to a certain extent, with regard to state of negotiation between the United States abstracts, whichever may be needed to present the question whether they are proper claims to and England that England shall recognize her the case so that the Secretary of State, and not be presented against foreign Governments, and liability to pay those claims, their amount mast an examiner of claims, can pass upon the pro- to be urged, yet the head of a Department like be ascertained in some way provided for by priety of it, and enable him, not an examiner, the Secretary of State, with all his other avothe treaty, or by the result of the negotiations, but the Secretary, the responsible officer under | cations, conducting the diplomatic correspondprobably by the appointment of a commission. the Constitution, to determine whether it is ence of the country principally, may not have That commission will hear evidence, and this proper claim to present to the attention of a time, when these claims amount to a very conGovernment will be properly represented be- || foreign Government or not.

siderable number, to go over them all, arrange fore such a commission, and take the place Indubitably, there may be papers in the the papers, examine the evidence, and look up which is now contemplated by this examiner. State Department bearing upon the claims of the law particularly, and devote all the time to This examination now is premature. It will citizens on this Government, and we may have that detail which must be devoted in order to furnish no evidence against England, for 'she occasion to call for those. We find such evi- come to a right understanding of the subject. is no party to it. It is not made under any dence in every one of the Departments; we I have had some experience, though not negotiation with her. Therefore, in my judg. are calling for it every day, and that evidence very much, in this matter of the judgment that ment, upon that particular case and class of is furnished us by $1,200 clerks in every other has to be passed upon subjects by the head of cases, the examinations now made are without Department. I do not see why they cannot a Departinent. The Secretary of the Treasury value.

furnish it in the State Department just as well. is obliged to decide upon a great many ques Mr. HOWE. Now, I want to add two or If there is a necessity for such an officer in that tions of claims of one kind and another. If three words to the little that has been said on Department it is because he is to do the work the Secretary of the Treasury was compelled this subject, especially because I have had to of an extra clerk, or it is because he is to look up all those questions himself, to arrange listen to a very earnest protest on the part of assume some portion of the responsibility which the papers, to collate and digest the testimony, the Senator from Massachusetts against my the law said should devolve on the Secretary and to state the principles and the statutes following my own convictions or my own opin- himself

. For the division of that responsi- applicable to each particular case, it would be ions on this question. He seems to be im- || bility we furnish him one assistant constantly, utterly impossible for him to get through one pressed with the idea that as he has examined || and it is the effort of a part of this amendment twentieth part of the business to be done by it longer and knows more about it than I can, to secure him another assistant. For that part || him. Of course he bas to settle the matter in therefore I ought to act upon his judgment and of the amendment I am anxious to vote. I the last resort; but there are in the Departnot refer to my own. The position would be was not present in committee when it was ment of the Treasury several clerks, in fact, pretty well taken with one qualification : if the considered there. I should not have acquiesced, passing upon different kinds of questions, Senator would be willing to tell us what he I think-unless I had heard reasons for that familiar with their respective branches, who knows about the necessity of this examiner of amendment which I have not heard on the arrange the papers, collate the testimony, state claims I should be bound to listen to his testi- || floor of the Senate-in the propriety of dis- the facts, and state the statutes and the law mony, and if he made it intelligible to me, then continuing the employment of the Second | applicable to those facts, making a brief, in I could see as he did; but it will not do for Assistant Secretary of State. I cannot dispute point of fact; and when that is done, the case him to testify that there is a necessity when he the Senator from Indiana when he says that in a comparatively narrow compass is submitdoes not tend to convince me, unless he can he does not believe all the wisdom of the world ted to the Secretary, and he passes upon it, show me the necessity. I never knew that will die when Mr. Hunter dies. He may be either with or without further examination as Senator yet to be in possession of a fact that entirely right in that; but I am very much may seem necessary to him. he could not explain. I never supposed that he || inclined to think that when Mr. Hunter dies Until the war there was very little of that in knew anything that he could not tell, and tell a great deal of the wisdom of the State Depart- the State Department; there was no more, adequately, and tell to my comprehension; ment will perish. Undoubtedly it can be sup- perhaps, than the Secretary could do himself; and I am bound to say, though I think he has plied; but I have the impression, though I do but it was stated to me by the Secretary of made an honest effort to inform me upon this not pretend to know as intimately on this point State that the claims upon foreign Governments point, he has utterly failed. I do not hold him as the Senator from Massachusetts must know and some upon our own Government-for responsible for it. I am not going to deny that and as other Senators must, that Mr. Hunter there are many upon our own Government I am personally responsible myself, or that my is one of those officers of whom we bave two that come before him, of which I could give nature is not. Yet I am inclined to think the or three or more specimens, I am glad to know, an instance if necessary-were so numerous responsibility rests with the case that he has in the service of the Government, who are a sort that it was impossible for him, with all the taken in hand. He has simply failed to show of rade mecum in their respective oflices, who other duties that were pressing upon him, to me the necessity for this officer, because there know all about the duties of their oflice, and discharge that duty, that he must have some is no necessity for him in the world.

by reason of their long employment and close assistance, and that he had in his Department Sir, an examiner of claims in the State attention and great natural capacity have made no clerk who was entirely qualified to do what Department, I take it, must have something themselves masters of the history and of the was necessary to be done. In the first place to do with one of three kinds of claims : either whole work of their respective Departments. he required a good and practiced lawyer as claims which individuals present against this | It is a calamity to any Government to lose the well as a good man of business to make an Government, or claims which this Governinent services of such an officer. I think he is one. abstract and statement of these claims, the presents against foreign Governments, or claims I think we have at the head of the Land Office law and principles applicable to them, to be which individual citizens of the United States another. I think we have as chief clerk of the presented to him for his decision. I believed wish to urgeupon foreign Governments through || Indian Bureau another of that class of men. the Secretary of State ; I believe him now. the agency of the State Department. If this I should be very sorry to see, for the want of He is not a man to ask for help that he does examiner is there for the purpose of expe- any reasonable appropriation of dollars, the not need. He is a laborious man, devoted to diting claims of citizens against this Govern- Government lose the services of such an officer. his duties, desirous to discharge them all; and ment or claims of anybody against this Gov. Now, I shall vote with great cheerfulness for when he stated to me that he absolutely ernment, I have simply to say that the Secre- the amendiment moved by the Senator from needed this assistance in order to get through

meet the requisitions upon him from our fel! Mr. MORRILL, of Xiaine. I supposed the State, leaving the amendment of the commit

with the business that was pressing upon him his abstract, and prepares the way for the || pensation does all the service for which we from the very great number of those claims final examination by the Secretary himself. have been paying. And yet the honorable that must come before him for examination, I And so when our own fellow-citizens present Senator from Massachusetts (as I said yesteraided in passing that law in order to give him their claims to the Department of State, ask|| day, the great orb of the State Department, the assistance that I thought and still thinking the Department to transınit them to Eng- || who rises periodically in his effulgence and be needs.

land or to France, or towherever else the claim- sends his rays down the steep places here to That statement, coming from him, is not to ant may appeal ; the Secretary of State is not cast a good many dollars into the sea) rises be answered by the fact that any member of able himself to go over these claims and all and says that he is unanimously instructed by the Committee on Foreign Relations in this the proofs accompanying them. In the first the Committee on Foreign Relations, in subbody is not prepared to go through and undergo | place, he must commit that duty to another stance, to inform the Senate that they are & cross-examination upon exactly what all this person who performs what in the profession approaching the edge of a precipice, and that business is. I do not know, nor do I pretend might be called the duty of the attorney, who they are to do great harm if they abolish this to know, nor is it necessary that I should know prepares the case for the final action of the Sec- office, because he grouped them all together in order to come to a right understanding of retary himself.

and made one equal in his indispensability the question on that statement from the officer I believe in all this matter there is no mys. with the other two. at the head of that Department. That neces- tification, nor is there any exaggeration. It Mr. SUMNER. Will the Senator allow me sity pressing upon him is as great now as it has is all plain as human duty, and I believe it to correct him there? been, and the only question, as it strikes me, grows out of the necessities of the public ser- Mr. CONKLING. Certainly, as I am always which is pending before the Senate is simply vice. I hope, therefore, that both these offi- honored to be corrected by the Senator. this: shall we deprive him of this assistance cers will be allowed to remain, the examiner Mr. SUMNER. The Senator is very much wbich any one can see who is at all familiar of claims and the Second Assistant Secretary of mistaken. I made a distinction between the with the workings of the Department may be State.

offices, and my motion is to strike out of the necessary to him, and which he avers is abso- The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques. amendment of the committee that part which lutely necessary in order to enable him to dis- tion is on the amendment of the Senator from proposes to abolish the offices of examiner of

the amendment.

of Secretary of low citizens which he must necessarily be called question was on the amendment proposed by tee, so far as it touches the statistical clerkship, upon to meet? My opinion is, as I said before, the Senator from Indiana.

unaffected. And in the course of my remarks, that this officer is necessary, and I am unwill- The PRESIDENT pro tempore. That is not if the Senator will do me the honor to look at ing to have him dispensed with.

in order. The amendment of the Senator them, he will find that I made that distinction ; Mr. SUMNER. " Mr. President, the Sen- from Massachusetts is an amendment to an and I began my remarks this morning by say. ator from Maine has referred to the testimony amendment.

ing that I had nothing to say with regard to of the Secretary of State some time ago at the Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. But is it not in the statistical clerkship; I should leave that creation of this office. I am able to cominuni- order to perfect the words proposed to be

in the hands of the Senate. I made my ques. cate his testimony this morning. In the course stricken out?

tion with regard to the two other officers whose of business I saw him before the meeting of The PRESIDENT pro tempore. It is in existence in the Department I thought importthe Senate; and when allusion was made to order to perfect the bill, but this is part of an ant to the public interests. the proposition to abolish the office of the amendment merely.

Mr. CONKLING. The proposition of the examiner of claims be expressed himself very Mr. CONKLING. Mr. President, as it Senator to leave one of these offices in the strongly against it, saying he regarded that seems we are about to vote upon the whole of hands of the Senate implies that the Senate office as essential to the business of the Depart- the amendment proposed by the Senator from is not to be permitted to pass upon the other ment. He did not see how the business could Massachusetts, I wish to make one suggestion. two. It reminds me of a meeting somewhat be conducted to the satisfaction of the com- The strength of the case against the amend- famous which took place in a certain office in munity without that office. Now, that is his ment of the Committee on Appropriations is State street, Albany, where a certain man in testimony.

the advice of the Committee on Foreign Rela- New York, after making up the entire State Senators have undertaken to cross-examine tions; and now before making a statement, I ticket on the Democrat side, came down to the me on the subject; they have asked me to give | wish to read to the Senate what the Senator State prison inspector and had some difficulty a bill of particulars of all that this officer has | from Massachusetts said yesterday. The about it in his own mind; he could not solve done. I am not able to do it. I give my opin- | amendment of the committee being read, which it to his own satisfaction, and so finally he jou on what I know. I have known the opin- | amendment proposed to put an end to three said, "It is of no consequence; we will leave ion of the Secretary of State, and of other officers, the second under-secretary, the ex. that to the convention; let them nominate a persons in the Department now, for several aminer of claims, and the superintendent of State prison inspector." [Laughter.] The years on this subject. Then, being at the De-l statistics, the honorable Senator from Massa- Senator from Massachusetts proposes to make partment in the transaction of official business, chusetts made this statement :

final disposition of all this matter except with I have had occasion to see this officer myself.

“I was about to say that I was instructed by the regard to this one officer, and that he will leave Then, from my connection with the Committee Committee on Foreign Relations to oppose the adop- to the Senate! I rather think, Mr. President, on Foreign Relations, I have necessarily had

tion of this amendment, and to move instead thereof that before we have finished, all this will be a great deal of correspondence with the Depart.

an appropriation for the officers whose offices it is
proposed by this amendment to destroy. This amend-

left to the Senate by some hook or crook, and ment of State ; hardly a day passes that I do ment is aimed at certain officers in the Department upon that theory I will continue to make an not receive communications of some kind from of State."

observation or two. the Department covering papers and reports

And the Senator then proceeded to argue I repeat now that the Senator stated, as I read of different kinds. It is in those communica- the importance of all three of these persons yesterday, that he was instructed; let me give tions that I have had occasion to see the active and the impropriety and danger of putting an his language: talent and industry of this officer. I have seen end to the offices of all three alike. Now, Mr. "I was instructed by the Committee on Foreign it year by year and month by month. Now, President, that we may see in one instance the

Relations to oppose the adoption of this amendment,

and to move instead thereof an appropriation for that is my testimony. It may not satisfy my extent of that critical process by which the

the officers whose offices it is proposed by this amendcross-examiners, the Senator from New York chairinan of the Committee on Foreign Rela- ment to destroy." or the Senator from Wisconsin, and. I freely tions supervises and overrules the Committee | Does not that mean the superintendent of say, in reply to them, that I cannot furnish the on Appropriations, I wish to make this state- statistics as much as it means anybody else ? details. I never have busied myself to inquirement: I was visited this morning by a person The Senator may have had some mental reser. into them. Enough if I satisfied myself that who knows better than the Senator from Massa- vation about it. I am aware that he did go on the office was important to the public interests. chusetts can know what is done in the Bureau afterward to argue and to propose to take the Personally I can have no interest in this. My of Statistics in the State Department, as it is question upon the latter part of the amendacquaintance with this officer is very slight'; || called, and from him I learn that if this amend- ment first. I know that he said this morning since he has been here I have had nothing but ment of the committee is adopted, so far as that in bis judgment this officer, the superinofficial relations with him ; but I am obliged to the superintendent of statistics is concerned it tendent of statistics, ought not to be abolished, say that in my opinion he has rendered essen- puts an end to the tenure of a man who has that he thought it was not wise or safe to do it, tial service to our country, and that his office had for a long period of time nothing in the but he intimated that he had not so much feelought not to be abolished.

world to do with the business of statistics in ing about that as he had about the other two. The Senator from Wisconsin made an analy- || the State Department, who bas simply received But I was commenting upon his statement sis of the different kinds of claims that might his salary, not professing to render any service made yesterday, that his committee bached him be presented to our Government. I do not in return. I am informed, further, ibat the in saying to the Senate that this amendment object to his analysis ; but take, for instance, adoption of this amendment, sweeping away of the Appropriation Committee ought not to the claims of foreign Powers on the United that place, will leave the actual preparation be adopted, but that appropriations ought to States; there is a very extensive class; and and compilation of statistics in precisely the be made for the officers, to wit, three in numwhen they are presented it can hardly be same hands in which it is now-the hands of ber, whom it was proposed to strike out. It is expected that the Secretary of State himself an untbanked derk of the Department, detuiled to that I ain calling attention, and there the will make the first examination of perhaps the by the Secretary of State to do that business, record bears me out. complicated papers attending those claims. a man who receives rothing specifically for Mr. FESSENDEN. I beg leave to say that He necessarily puts that into the hands of doing it, but who takes his compensation as a that is precisely what the committee did agree another person, who goes over them and makes ll clerk, asking nothing more, and for that com

to do. 40TH Cong. 2D SESS. --No. 213.

to vote.

Mr. CONKLING. Certainly.

I had no

dividual in view whose interests I wished to The PRESIDENT pro tempore. That would doubt about it. The Senator from Maine shows promote.

be in order. now that I am right in quoting the Senator Now, I ask the Senate if I have been treated Mr. SUMNER. It would then be open to from Massachusetts, and that the Senator from candidly by the Senator from New York? In amendment. Massachusetts was right in quoting the author- the face of my open statement, that with regard

Mr. RAMSEY. I desire to kuow how lam ity of his committee. I had no doubt about to this statistical clerkship I was comparatively

I wish to retain Mr. Hunter in office. it. Under these circumstances, having sat a indifferent, that I did not think the public I think him a most valuable officer. I care number of times, as I have said, as the hum- interests would suffer if it were abolished, that nothing about the other two clerks. How shall blest member of the Committee on Appropria- therefore I made no plea for its preservation,

I vote? tions, under the somewhat caustic animad- but that I willingly left it to the Senate, was it Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. If the propo. versions of the Senator from Massachusetts, candid for the Senator to make the comments sition of the Senator from Massachusetts is implying that we are in outer darkness on all upon me that he did? I propound the ques- voted down, and the proposition of the Senthese subjects, and that if kuowledge is not tion and leave it.

ator from Indiana prevails afterward, the Sen. confined to him it certainly is confined to some- And that brings me again to the two other ator from Minnesota will reach the end he body who does not belong to the Appropria- || officers with regard to which I made a clear

seeks to accomplish. tion Committee, I have taken the trouble to distinction. I regarded then both of them as

Mr. EDMUNDS. That is not so certain. repeat the statement which was made to me performing duties important to the public ser- The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The questhis morning on undoubted authority, that this vice. Now, it seems to me generally admitted tion is on the amendment of the Senator from work is done in the State Department by an all around the Chamber that with regard to one Massachusetts to the amendment of the comunthanked clerk, designated, perhaps, by a of them I was right. Even the Senator from mittee. wave of the hand of the Secretary of State to New York does not ask to have the Second The question being taken by yeas and nays, perform this duty, and repealing the existing || Assistant Secretary of State sacrificed; but he resulted-yeas 22, nays 14 ; as follows: faw as regards the superintendent of statistics says, hand over the examiner of claims, let YEAS-Messrs. Biyard, Cattell, Cragin, Dixon, will leave that same clerk performing the same him be sacrificed; and the argument, if I Doolittle. Drake, Edmunds, Fessenden. Freling

huysen, Henderson, Howard. Joboson, McCreery, duty, and make no change except that a man understand his last speech, is that the Senator

Morgan, Morril of Vermont, Patterson of New six hundred miles away, having for two or from Massachusetts insisted that the statistical

Hampshire, Patterson of Tennessee, Russ, Sprague, three years drawn the salary of this place, will clerkship should be preserved, and because, Sumner, Willey, and Yates--22.

NAYS-Messrs. Chandler, Cole, Cookling. Ferry, cease to draw it. according to his representation, I so insisted,

llowe, Morrill of Maine, Nye, Ramsey, Rice, SberNow, Mr. President, I have only to say that in his opinion, and on good grounds, as exhib. man, Stewart, Trumbull, Wade, and Wilson-14, in my belief the Committee on Foreign Rela- ited by him, the statistical clerkship ought not

ABSENT- Messrs. Anthony, Buckalew, Cameron,

Conness, Corbett, Davis, Fowler, Grimes. Harlan, tions, when they gave this instruction, were to be preserved, therefore these others should

Henúrieks, McDonald, Morton, Norton, Pomeroy, not permitted by the chairman of the cominit. not be! I do not understand that logic. I do Saulsbury, Thayer, Tipton, Van Winkle, Vickers, tee to enjoy the benefit of all the information not understand the logic of taking up a case

and Williams--20. which he says he bas on this subject. On the to which I did not refer, on which I did not

So the amendment to the amendment was contrary, that committee, after proper tuition build, with regard to which, in the discussion | agreed 10. by its chairman, after being educated as far as to-day, I have made no pretension whatever. The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The quesit is capable of being educated in the mys- I do not understand the logic of taking that tion is on the amendment as amended. teries of the State Department by him, would case, which may not be sustained by reason The amendment, as amended, was agreed to. never, I apprehend, have instructed him to or by fact, and arguing froin that against the Mr. SUMNER. Now, with the permission come here and caution the Senate against the other.

of the Senator from Maine, (Mr. MORRILL,] I false and almost fatal step that it was likely to Admit that the statistical clerkship should

will siruply move to make the proper appropritake in abolishing, among other things, the be abandoned, does it follow that you must

ation in that clause for these two ufficers. office of the superintendent of statistics in the abandon the other two offices ? Clearly not.

Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. Let us go through State Department, and as we are compelled I have from the beginning made a difference

with the amendments of the Comınittee on now to vote upon his amendment as it stands between the cases ; though, as I said when I

Appropriations. This clause may be changed together I trust that it will be voted down, and opened my remarks yesterday-and little did that the Senator from Indiana will have an I think then that the discussion was to run on

in the Senate; I shall propose turtber amend

ments which may change the character of the . opportunity to propose his amendment, and in this way for so long a time--I was instructed

bill in that respect. allow Mr. Hunter to stand upon his own foot- by the Committee on Foreign Relations to

The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Clerk ing, because I am very free to say, in harmony oppose the whole amendment relating to the with my honorable friend from Wisconsin, that three different officers. But then the coininit.

will proceed with the reading of the bill. of these three places the Second Assistant tee took into view the different grounds--the l amendments reported by the Committee on

The reading of the bill was continued, the Secretary, under all the circumstances, seems position in each case. They saw that the

Appropriations being acied on in their order to me the one to retain, if indeed we are to statistical clerkship might be dispensed with

as reached in tbe reading of the bill. retain either. without great detriment to the public service,

The next amendment of the Committee on Mr. SUMNER. "Mr. President, the Senator but they thought that when it was dispensed Appropriations was in line three hundred aud from New York has a passion for misunder- with its duties ought to be transferred to some standing me at least; and he has a manner of bureau of statistics, and that the measure as

eighty.niue, to strike out " five" and insert

"eleven,'' so as to appropriate for eleven clerks expressing it imported from the other end of now proposed was on that account incom

of class four in the ottice of the Secretary of the the Capitol to which we have been less accus. plete ; therefore they instructed me to oppose toined, I believe in this Chamber, than others ihe abolition of that office under the present


The amendment was agreed to. have been in the House of Representatives. I amendment. Had any substitute been brought am sorry. I wish it were otherwise. I have forward to transfer the duties of that office to

The next amendment was in line three hun. tried to make a frank statement. I have no the Bureau of Statistics, that would have pre

dred and ninety.one, to strike out “ eleven" personal interest; I am seeking nothing but sented entirely a different question.

and insert " twelve," so as to appropriate for the public interest. I do not doubt that the The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The queg.

twelve clerks of class three in the same office. Senator from New York is also seeking the tion is on the amendment of the Senator from

The amendinent was agreed to. public interest; I make no suggestion to the Massachusetts to the amendment of the Com- The next amendment was in line three huncontrary, though I do not see that the public mittee on Appropriatious.

dred and ninety-two, to strike out “six" and interest requires the peculiar line of argument

Mr. SUMNER called for the yeas and nays;

insert “ fourteen,' as to appropriate for and cross-examination and the manner which and they were ordered.

fourteen clerks of class two in that oilice. the Senator has chosen to adopt; but that is Mr. EDMUNDS. I do not want to take The amendment was agreed to. for him to choose, and not for me.

time; but I think the only way I can reach the The next amendment was in line three hun. The Senate will bear me witness that from result I wish to reach is to vote in favor of the

dred and ninety-three, to strike out "six"' the beginning of this discussion I made a plain motion of the Senator from Massachusetts, to and insert “ fifteen," so as to appropriate for distinction between these different offices. I strike out the whole clause, and then I shall fifteen clerks of class one in that oflice. said that I had little to say for the clerkship vote afterward to retain only the Second The amendment was agreed to. of statistics beyond this; that I thought when Assistant Secretary. If I vote against his the change was made it should be transferred amendment and to retain the clause reported dred and ninety-six, to strike out - $66,400"

The next amendment was in line three bun. to a general bureau of statistics wherever that by the committee I do not perceive how I can

and insert - $101,800." might be, whether in the Treasury Department afterward divide it.

The amendment was agreed to. or in any other Department of the Govern- Mr. CONKLING. Then the amendment of ment, or whether such bureau should be ele. the Senator from Indiana reaches it.

The clause from line three hundred and vated into a department. My criticism on the Mr. EDMUNDS. No; I do not think that eighty-eight to line three bundred and ninetypresent proposition was that it abolished the will be in order.

seven, as thus amended, is as follows: office in the State Department without trans- Mr. MORRILL, of Maine. I would inquire

For compensation of the Secretary of the Treasury,

two Assistant Secretaries of the Treasury, chief clerk, ferring its duties anywhere else. That is all. whether, if this proposition of the Senator

eleven cierks of class four, additional to one clerk I did not even know the present incumbent, from Massachuseits should be rejected, the of class fiur as disbursing clerk, twelve clerks of and I made no inquiry with regard to him, proposition of the Senator from Indiana, to

class three, fourteen clerks of class tryo, two clerks for in this whole matter I acted, if I may so

of class two. (transferred from the Tbird Auditor's modify the amendment reported by the com. office,) fiteen clerks of class one, (two of whom wero express myself, impersonally. I had no in- mittee, would be in ordery

transferred from the Third Auditor's office,) one mes


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