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Mr. HENDERSON. That does not apply others from two hundred and fifty to two hun. gin. Creswell, Dison, Edmunds. Ilarris. IIendricks, to the spans of the bridge. A span of three | dred and twenty.
llowe, Doucall, Morrill, Nesinitta, Norton, Poland, handred feet can be built on the Mississippi Mr.TRUMBULL. The Senator from Vissouri
Pomeroy, Riddic, Sprague, Stewart, Williams, and
Wright--21. just as well as on the Olio. There may be will allow me to make a suggestion. He has
So the amendment was rejected. some diffeulty about getting the elevation, but copied out of a statute passed some time ago il that has noihing to do with the span the Sen- litile different phraseology from that employed
Mr. IIENDERSON. I move to amend the ator will see. I wani to pu. these spans. if they || in this bill. I really do not think it is any better second section, by inserting after the word are built in this way, three hundred feet instead than that in the bill which the Senator from
"river," in line twenty-four, the words and of two hundred and fifty.
Minnesota has reported, and which provides the main span shall be over the main channel I suggest further that it ought also be amended • that if the said bridge shall be made with
of the river." There is no requirement in the so as to have the main span of the bridge, if unbroken or continuous spans''-the Senator
bill now that the main span of the bridge shall they are built of continuous spans, immediately proposes to amend by changing the order of the
be built over the channel or anywbere near the over the best or main channel of the river. words - unbroken” and “continuous," so as
channel. I hope the Senate will permit this There is no requirement of that particular in to read that if the said bridge shall be made
amendment to be made. the bill. with continuous and unbroken spans." I do
Mr. RAJSEY. I have no objection to it. Mr. RAJSEY. I have no objection to that not think there is much importance, in an
Mr. IIEIDERSON. I thought perhaps at all. I cannot conceive what motive the com- amendment of that kind, which adjective comes
there might be objection. pany would have to build the main passage- first. The only point of his amendment. as it
Mr. RAMSEY. At the same point, if the way over any, other than the main channel. seems to me, is that the wide span shall be over
genilenan wishes to enlarge the main span to Nr. HENDERSON. I presume so; but why the center of the stream, and io that I under
three hundred feet, he can propose it, and does the Senator require it in the draw-bridges stand the Senator from Minnesota las no objec
there will be no oljection. and not in continuous-span bridges? tion; I certainly have none. If the Senator
Mr. HENDERSON. That is what I desired Mr. RAJSEY. I have no objection to that from Missouri will just put his amendment into
to' accomplish, but the Senate just voted it amendment. form, I think we can agree upon it.
down. Mr.IIENDERSON. My amendment goes on: Mr. HENDERSON. It is in form now:
Mr. RANSEY. Not that alone. The Sen.
tor incoinbered that provision with a great The main span of suc' bridzo shall be made to That if any bridge built under the provisions of cover the incin channel of said river, and shall be chis act shall be constructed with continuous and
deal of other matter which we did not want to three hundred feet in length, and the next adjoining unbroken spins
adopt. span not less than two hundieu and i wentyreet; and the piers of said bridge shall be parallel with the
Certainly that cannot be different from “un
Mr. HENDERSON. There were but two curreai oi the river. broken and continuolis."
points in iny amendment which has jusi been I should like, also, to have a provision of
Mr. TRUMBULL. I know; but there is voted down. this character:
no importance in amending the bill to change Mr. RAMSEY. The great objection to that tie order of those words.
amendment was, that it did not elerate the No span of any such bridge bencath which water
Mr. HENDERSON. It was a mere over- bridge sufliciently. It left out this provision flors at low-water mark shall beless than one hundred and seventy-five feet in length.
sight of mine if I have changed the order in of the section as it stands: Mr. TRUMBULL. What is the amendment which they come:
It shall not be of lees eleration in any case than
It shall not be less than fifty feet above high-water fifty feet above extremo bigh-water mark. proposed? Where does it come in? Mr. HENDERSON. It is where the com
mark as understood at the point of its erection. Mr. HENDERSON. That is just what my
Mr. TRUMBULL. IIere it is as under: mittee amend the bill, beginning at line seven
amendment was; but I cannot go into a dis. stood at the point of location.” There is no cussion of it with the Senator. I really want teen of section two:
importance in that change of language. the best bridge I can get, and I will put the Provided, That if any bridge bnilt under the pro- Mr. HENDERSON. I suppose not; but visions of this act shall beconstructed with continuous
main span at three hundred feet. The amendand unbroken spans, it shail not be less than fifty my amendment goes on, “measuring for such ment I more, therefore, is to insert after the feet above the higli-watermark as understood at the elevation froin the surface of the water at such word “river," in the twenty-fourth line of the point ofits crection, measuring for such elevation from the sin face of the water at such high stage to the
high stage to the bottom chord of the bridge." second section, the words “ and the main span bottom chord of the bridge.
Mr. TRUMBULL. Here it is - to the bot- shall be over the main channel of the river, Mr. TRUMBULL. That is precisely what tom chord of the bridge.
and shall be not less than three hundred feet it is now except in different words.
Mr. HENDERSON. My amendment goes in length."'. Mr. HENDERSON. I wish to amend it; on, "and the main span of such bridge shall Mr. RAMSEY. I have no ohjection to that. I prefer the different words:
be made to cover the main channel of the The amendment was agreed to.
river." The main span of such bridge shall be made to Mr. TRUJDULL. That is the new matter
Mr. HENDERSOX. I call the Senator's cover the rain chaunel of said river.
attention to the word “nearing,'' in the thirty. There is no such provision in the bill. you propose to put in.
fourth line of the second section. It seems Mr. TRUMBULL. There is no objection
Mr. HENDERSON. Is there any objection
to me that it was certainly intended to be to that. to the three hundred feet span?
6. measuring. Mr. HENDERSON. Then I provide that Mr. KIRKWOOD. That is assented to, I
The PRESIDENT pro tempore. That is a no main spans shall be less than three hundred understand.
clerical error which has been corrected, as the feet in length, and also to shorten the next
Mr. IIENDERSON. I suppose that is not Chair is advised. adjoining spans so as to be not less than tivo
a matter of very great consequence,
Mr. HENDERSON. I now offer the fol. hundred and twenty feet in length, “and the
of course, all these bridges will now be built | lowing amendment as an additional section: piers of said bridge shall be parallel to the curwith a pivot pier. I suppose no company will
And be it further enacted. That any bridge or bridges rent of river." I think the wording of it is
build a bridge of this character when they can erected under and according to the provisions of this much better and it contains an inportant pro.
build one much cheaper with a pivot pier and act shall be lawiul structures, and shall be recognized vision which is left out of the bill as it stands. draw. At any rate I will offer my amendment.
and known as post routes, upon which also no higher
charge shall be made for the trausportation of the dir. RAMSEY. You are reducing the length I move to strike out all the words between
mails or troops and munitions of war of the United of the spans from two hundred and fifty to two
“provided,” in the seventeenth line, and States than the rate per milo which the company or hundred and twenty feet. "river,'' in the twenty-fourth line, and in lieu
companies owning the railroads on cach side of tho
river, and using said bridge, charge for the same Mr. HENDERSON. There certainly can of those words to insert:
service; nnd the oficers and crews of all vessels, be no objection to that.
That if any bridge built under the provisions of boats, and rafts navigating said river are required
this act shall be constructed with continuous and to regulate the width and the height of the sa.ac so Mr. RAJSEY. I have no objection to the
unbroken spans, it shall not be less than fifty feet as not to interfere with the crection or use of any enlargement of the main span to three hundred above high water-mark as understood at the point bridge erccted under the provisions of this act. fect, but I object to the reduction of the other
of its erection, measuring for such elevation from tho
Mr. KIRKWOOD. Is that in lieu of section spans from two hundred and fifty to two bun- chord of the bridge. The main span of such bridge
three? dred and twenty feet.
shall be made to cover the main channel of the river, Mr. TRUMBULL. I do not know that I Mr. HENDERSON. I only ask that the one and such span shall not be less than three hundred
understand the amendment. Is it proposed to feet in length, with also one of the next adjoining over the main channel shall be three hundred spans of not less than two hundred and fifty feet in
strike out section three? feet; two lundred and twenty feet is enough length; and the piers of such bridgeshall be parallel Mr. HENDERSON. No, sir ; I have not for the adjoining span. I do not care for a with the current of the river.
made any such motion. larger one if you have a threc lundred feet span
The question being put, it was declared that Mr. TRUMBULL.. There is a part of this over the main channel of the river; but the the amendment was rejected.
section already in the bill. Senator may put it at two hundred and fifty
Mr. HENDERSON. I call for the yeas and Mr. IIENDERSON. But there is soine feet if he will. I did not know the Senator nays. I thought the amendment was under
other matter in this. would be willing to agree to that; but if he is, stood to be agreed to.
Mr. TRUMBULL. It would be very inconI am perfectly willing that all the spans shall The yeas and nays were ordered ; and being i gruous to repeat over again provisions already be two hundred and lifty feet except the main
taken, l'esulted-yeas 7, nays 21; as follows: | contained in the bill. A portion of this amend. span, and let that be three hundred feet. That YEAS-Messrs. Anthony, Davis, II enderson, How- ment is precisely what the third section is. will cover any water running at low-water mark
ard, Lanc of Indiana, Saulsbury, and Sherman-7. Mr. HENDERSON. That provision, I
NAYS- Jessrs. Chandler, Clark, Conness, Doolittle, wherever the water runs at low-water mark.
Fessendlen, Foster, Grings, Guthrie, Johnson, Kirk: thought, conld be stricken out afterward. I Mr. RAMSEY. While I agree to accept the wood, Land of Kansas, Morgan. Nye, Raunscy, Sum- am not particular, however, about the amend. provision requiring the main span to be three
ner, Trumbull, Van Winkle, Wade, Willey, Wilson,
ment. If the Senator from Illinois objects to hundred feet, I object to the deduction of the ABSENT-Messrs. Brown, Buckalew, Cowan. Cra
it, of course it will be voted down. 39TH CONG. IST SESS. --No. 143.
Mr. KIRKWOOD. I suggest to the Senator Government, whose appointments require the consent shall have been confirmed by the Senate. I from Vissouri that there is a part of his amend.
of the Senate, and whose appointments, having been
that the time when the President of
suppose ment which would come in at the end of the consented to before the adjournment thereof, no
the United States is.to send in his nominar third section, and perhaps he had better offer money shall be drawn from the Treasury or used from tions is a matter for himself to decide, as it is it in that form.
any fund or appropriation made or created by law to for the Senate to decide at what time they will Mr. HENDERSON. I prefer the languagements, or under any previous appointment to the pay the salaries of such persons under such appoint
act upon the nominations when they shall come as I have submitted it; but I do not wish to same office, for services rendered after said adjourn- in. If he has a right to remove and he has a take up time, for I see that the Senate is im
nent. And if any such person so rejected by the
right to appoint, and no oflicer is to get his pay Senate shall, after such adjournment, be appointed patient. I withdraw the amendment. to the same office, no money shall be drawn or used
untilthe Senate haveacted upon the nomination, The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The ques. as aforesaid to pay his salary until his appointment when it shall act, what is to become of the intertion now before the Senate is on concurring
shall have been consented to by the Senate at its ests of the country in the interval that may pass
succeeding session. in the amendment made as in Committee of
between the period of the removal of the original the Whole to the second section as it has been
Mr. HENDERSON. The Senator from Illi
incumbent and the confirmation of the nomiamended.
nois has submitted an amendment to the bill, nation of his successor? Are the wheels of The amendment, as amended, was
the language of which I like better than that, con
the Government, as far as they depend upon curred in.
and therefore I withdraw the pending amend- the filling of that office, to be arrested, to be The PRESIDENT pro tempore. There is ment, at least for the time being, until his stopped And if they are not, is it proper to another amendment made as in Committee of
amendment shall have been acted upon, though pass such an amendment as this, as the amendthe Whole which was excepted and which will if I see fit I may propose it afterward with
ment will necessarily lead to that result? It now be read. some change of language; I am not satisfied
cannot be supposed that a man will go into The Secretary read the amendment, as folwith it in its present shape.
office and remain there subject to the continlows:
The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The Sen- gency that he may be rejected by the Senate, And be it further enacted, That a bridge may be conator from Missouri withdraws his amendment.
that no matter how long he remains during a structed at the town ofllannibal, in the State of Mis- Mr. TRUMBULL. I offer this amendment | long session he is to get nothing unless the souri, across the Mississippi river, so as to connect as an additional section :
Senate shall confirm him. I should like to the Hannibal and St. Joseph railroad with the Pike County and Great Western railroads of Illinois, on And be it further enacted, That no person exercising hear from my friend from Illinois upon what the same terms and subject to the same restrictions or performing or undertaking to exercise or perform as contained in this act for the construction of the the duties of any office which by law is required to
grounds he supposes that the power in the first bridge at Quincy, Illinois.
be filled by the advice and consent of the Senate, place exists; and secondly, if the power exists,
shall, before confirmation by the Senate, receive any The amendment was concurred in.
upon what grounds he supposes it to be advisasalary or compensation for his services uniess such
ble to exercise the power. The bill was ordered to be engrossed for a
person be commissioned by the President to fill up a
Mr. TRUMBULL. Mr. President, I do not third reading, and was read the third time and
or expiration of term, during the recess of the Sen- think that the question of the power of the passed. ate and since its last adjournment.
President to remove from office an incumbent Mr. TRUMBULL. I think the title of the
Mr. JOHNSON. I should like to know the and appoint another in his place during the bill should be amended. It does not indicate
reasons why the honorable ineiber from Illi- recess is necessarily involved in the amendwhat the bill is. I move to amend the title so
nois supposes a provision of that sort is con- ment which I have offered. That is a controas to read, “A bill to authorize the construc
stitutional. There was a period in the begin. verted point and has been from the foundation tion of certain bridges, and establishing them ning of the Government when the President's of the Government. The practice, I am aware, as post roads." T'he amendment was agreed to.
power to remove was considered somewhat has been for the President to exercise the
questionable. It was, however, decided by the power to remove from office by making new PACIFIC RAILROAD-EASTERN DIVISION. Senate to be a clear power; and from that time appointments; and this has generally been Mr. HOWARD. The Committee on the
to the present I do not know that the legality of acquiesced in. Pacific Railroad, to whom was referred a mes
the power has ever been questioned. Mr. Web- The laws upon this subject have not, how. sage of the President of the United States rec
ster, many years ago, when there was a con- ever, been uniform. In 1863 there was creommending an extension of the time allowed
test between the then President of the United ated an officer called the Comptroller of the
States and the Senate--a contest just as angry by law for completing the first one hundred
Currency, and in the law establishing the Cur. miles of the Union Pacific railroad, eastern
or just as excited as the contest which may be rency Bureau it was provided that "there shall division. have had the same under considera
supposed to exist now between a majority of be appointed a chief officer to be styled the tion, and hare directed me to report the mes.
the Senate and the President-was disposed Comptroller of the Currency, who shall be sage and documents with a joint resolution. I
to call in question the power of removal; but under the general direction of the Secretary ask for the present consideration of the joint
the Senate will find that, in a letter written by of the Treasury.” The law firtber provided resolution.
Mr. Madison, in the Papers we have recently that he shall be appointed by the President, Mr. SHERMAN, I object. I have already published, in reply to Nr. Coles, who had been on the nomination of the Secretary of the yielded an hour and a half, and I insist upon
his former secretary, he enters into an argu- Treasury, by and with the advice and consent the regular order of business.
ment on the subject and considers it a question of the Senate, and shall hold his oflice for the The joint resolution (S. R. No. 80) extend
no longer open for controversy. The Senate term of five years unless sooner removed by ing the time for the completion of the Union
were very anxious at that time to prevent, if the President by and with the advice and conPacific railway, eastern division, was read and
they could do it, the power which' President sent of the Senate. passed to the second reading.
Jackson was from time to time exercising, but That law, passed in 1863, provided that the
they had to abandon it. I think the Supreme Comptroller of the Currency should be re; USE OF TIIE ILALL.
Court have more than once, the question being moved from office by and with the advice and Mr. WILSON. A day or two ago I offered presented, recognized the power to remove, and consent of the Senate alone, and according to a resolution to grant the use of this Hall to ihey have done it even in relation to a judicial that statute it is not competent for the PresiMr. Murdoch for a reading for the benefit of
officer. The members of the judicial depart- dent of the United States to remove the Compthe orphans of soldiers and sailors. I desire ment of the Government provided by the Con- troller of the Currency.except by the advice to take up the resolution and have the questionstitution hold their otlice during good beha- and consent of the Senate. The legislative settled whether we shall grant the use of the
vior. But, notwithstanding that, the judges of construction which was put upon the PresiHall or not, as the reading is to take place on territorial governments, it was held, were al- dent's power in 1863 by this act was that it Thursday, and the parties interested are exceed- ways liable to be removed by the President; was competent for Congress to provide that ingly anxious to know whether the use of the and a case was brought into the Supreme Court persons could be removed from olhce only by Hali is to be granted.
by a judge who had been removed, claiming the advice and consent of the Senate when Mr. SHERMAN. I call for the regular his salary on the ground that he could not be they were appointed by that advice and conorder of business. We can just as well decide removed, not because there existed no power sent. in the morning the matter referred to by the to remove in relation to officers generally, but Mr. JOHNSON. What is the date of that Senator from Massachusetts as we can now.
because of the particular character of his office; act? The PRESIDENT pro tempore. The spe
and the Supreme Court, as well as I recollect Mr. TRUMBULL. It was approved by the cial order having been laid aside informally by | -I do not speak with positive certainty on the President of the United States at that time, unanimous consent, must now come up, a call subject-decided that a judge in a Territory Mr. Lincoln, and I believe-I have not looked for it being made.
was not to be considered as a judge within the into the Journals-it was voted for, my impresPOST OFFICE APPROPRIATION BILL.
judicial department of the Government, and sion is it was voted for by the present Presi
was therefore just as liable to be removed as dent of the United States. The Senate resumed the consideration of
any other officer appointed under the Consti- Mr. JOHNSON. What is the date of its the bill (H. R. No. 280) making appropriations tution and laws.
approval ? for the service of the Post Office Department Now, I am not sure that I exactly under: Mr. TRUMBULL. The approval was on during the fiscal year ending June 30, 1867, stand the amendment proposed by my friend the 15th of February, 1863. and for other purposes, the pending question from Illinois. He does not mean, I suppose, to Mr. SHERMAN. I think the present Presibeing on the following amendment, proposed deny that the President has a right to remove, dent was not a member of the Senate then. by Mr. HENDERSON as an additional section: but he provides that if he does remove, and if Mr. TRUMBULL. I am not quite sure
And be it further enacted, That in all cases in which the othcer whom he appoints to take the place whether the present President of the United persons have been or sbali be appointed, either during the recess or during the session of the Senate, as
of the oficer removed goes into ofhce, he shall States was in this body at that time and voted assistant postmasters or other civil officers under the receive no compensation until his appointment Il for the law. My recollection, however, is that
he was, but I would not affirm that to be a fact advice and consent of the Senate when it was shall be able to find the letter to which I ad. without reference to the Journal; bat whether in session.
verted when I first rose, from Mr. Madison, that be so or not, that was the legislative con- Mr. JOHNSON. Mr. President, I ain aware upon this subject, written when his intellect struction of Congress on this power of the that the money of the Gorernment is placed was as bright as it ever was, written at a period President, and the law received the approval | under the control of Congress; and in one when (if there is any war between Congress of President Lincoln.
sense, therefore, Congress has the right to and the existing President) there was it war But, sir, the amendment which I have pro- refuse to pay salaries. They may refuse to even more bitter than may be supposed to be posed does not involve that question. Accord- pay the President his salary, now fixed by law. existing now, between the then Congress and ing to my understanding, the President has no They may refuse to appropriate at all for the the then President of the United States. authority to fill a vacancy which exists in an payment of the compensation which the lars Mr. CLARK. Is there a war now? office, by himself, without the advice and con- give, or which the laws ought to give, to the Dir. JOIINSON. I say supposing there may sent of the Senate, unless that vacancy occurs ollicers who may be appointed from time to be. I only put it as a supposition. I am sure while the Senate is not in session; and one time by the appointing power. But the hon- there is no war now, because the amendment object of this amendment is to prevent appoint- orable member, I am sure, will see that the proposed by the honorable member from Illiments of that character. I deny that if a ground upon which he places the constitution- nois shows that there is entire confidence in vacancy exists in an office while the Senate is ality of this legislation, as far as that particu- || the President; no doubt about that. [Laughhere, the President has any power to fill up lar ground is concerned, is one which will not | ter.] Of course I have no right, except by that vacancy without the advice and consent bear examination. If the President has the way of supposition, to conjecture that there is of the Senate. It takes the President and the power to appoint, and the appointee has the Senate both to make an officer ; but he may right to go to office under the Constitution, Nir. SUMNER. A mere hypothesis. make a new appointment in case that officer | alihough Congress may have the power to say Mr. JOHNSON. It is a mere hypothesis. dies during the recess of the Senate, or resigns that they will not pay, have they the moral I am sure there is no member of the Senate his office, or in case the term for which he was right to say that they will not pay? And if less likely to occasion a war with the President appointed expires during the recess of the there is no moral right to deny payment in than the honorable member froin Illinois; but Senate so that a vacancy occurs, though I am such a case, are they not warring against the this has a little squinting that way; and, unfornot quite sure that he would have authority to spirit of the Constitution, though not against tunately, perhaps, he does not sceit. [Laughappoint in the case of an expiration of the term, its letter, by refusing to pay?
ter.] It the Senate will indulge me until I find because that may not be the happening of a The Senate of the United States, or both the letter to which I have adverted, I will read vacancy, inasinuch as the term expires at a branches of Congress, may become so dissatis- it as bearing more persuasively upon the quesfixed period, there is no uncertainty about it, fied with the President of the United States as tion which I think is involved than I am sure and it is competent for the President to antici- to be exceedingly anxious to get rid of him. would be the effect of anything I could say, pate that period by sending the nomination of His remaining in office may interfere with some While my friend behind me, (Mr. Hendersox,] an officer to the Senate while it is in session favorite policy of Congress ; Congress may to whom I have turned over the book, is searchfor its confirmation. I am by no means clear || look to political measures upon which, as they | ing for the letter, let me say a word on the that he has authority to appoint in that case, suppose, the welfare of the country depends, l question what will be done by the proposed for then it becomes an appointment to an ori- and find that they cannot accomplish their amendment. ginal office when the term has expired. How. purpose in having such measures adopted as The honorable member from Illinois tells ever, it is provided in this amendincnt that in long as the incumbent of the presidential office the Senate that it raises no such constitutional either of these cases the President may make is in his seat. There are two ways to get rid question as I have suggested. If it does not, an appointment or may fill up the vacancy, of him. One is to impeach him. That re- there is certainly no necessity for the amendand the party will receive his salary. He has quires, to be successful, a vote in the body of If what it proposes to accomplish is the constitutional authority to do this.
two thirds. Another is to starve him out, and that which the law now accomplishes, there is But, Mr. President, the control of the reve- that may be accomplished by refusing to pay no occasion for the amendment. If it leaves nues of the country and of the money of the his salary; and the honorable member's argu- the appointing power precisely as free as it is country is not in the hands of the President ment would be just as solid in a case of that now, there is no occasion for the amendment. without the authority of Congress; he has no description in support of legislation such as I But as the amendment is offered upon the control over one dollar; he cannot draw his have supposed, as it is in relation to the case hypothesis that the law as it now stands will own salary except by authority of law; and the before the Senate, provided the President has not accomplish what the amendment proposes Senator from Maryland will observe that this the authority to remove and to appoint. to accomplish, the question is whether it does provision does not go to the appointing power Mr. President, in all good temper, I caution not seek to accomplish something which interat all; it is merely a provision in regard to the my friends, or rather the member who offers | feres with the appointing power of the Presisalaries of officers or the compensation they this amendment, against what may be the con- dent. Now, does it not? Since it was settled are to receive. It is entirely competent for sequences of this precedent in the future. It | in 1789 nobody has ever seriously questioned Congress to provide just as much compensa- may answer the temporary purpose for which that the President has the right to remove. tion as it pleases, or no coinpensation. It may he avows it now to be designed; but it may be Mr. Webster and Mr. Clay during the exciting authorize an appointment of an officer with- relied upon hereafter to answer a temporary || periods to which I have adverted, wbile Presout attaching any salary or any fees to the purpose which the honorable member from ident Jackson was at the head of the Adminisdischarge of the duties of the office. I think Illinois would be the last man to wish to sec tration, suggested that there was a serious doubt there is a bill now pending, reported by the accomplished. The precedent may return to whether the original decision was a correctone; Senator from Massachusetts, the chairman of plague the inventor. The dominant party now but as well as I remember, both of them, and the Committee on Foreign Relations, that pro- in each House of Congress may, in the course particularly Mr. Webster, admitted that it was vides for the appointment of certain commis- of time, become a minority. They may have too late to question the constitutionality of sioners without any salary whatever. It is elected their President, and he may be an ofli- that decision. entirely competent for Congress to make such cer who is willing to carry out their particular What Congress did in the act to which my provision. I'here is, therefore, no constitu- policy. These seats, however, and the seats friend from Illinois adverts was done under tional question involved in this amendment in the other House may be filled by a majority | the clause of the Constitution which gives the which I have offered.
of members who think that the policy which || authority to provide for the mode in which We propose to provide that no man placed the minority and the President for the time officers whose appointments are not provided in an office or undertaking to exercise or per- being may desire to carry out, is dangerous to for in the Constitution may be appointed. form the duties of an office without the con- the country, and then they may propose just | That is all; but this goes a stone's throw besent of the Senate shall receive any compensawhat the honorable member proposes now, not
I understand the honorable memtion whatever, unless his appointment is to to take away the power of appointment, as he ber from Illinois now as arowing that his purfill up a vacancy which happens by death, res- says, but to refuse to appropriate; not to de- pose is to deny to the President the power to ignation, or expiration of the term of service. clare that he shall not appoint, but to declare appoint during the recess of the Senate, but The intention of this amendment is to prevent that if he does appoint his appointment will be that he does not mean to deny his power to any person being turned out of office and an- futile; and they may go further and say fol- remove. What is the benelit of the power to other put in his place during the recess of the || lowing the principle for which this may be cited remove unless there exists in connection with Senate so as to receive his pay. If the Presi- as a precedent, that the President, for the time it the power to appoint? What is the effect dent thinks proper to undertake to remove being stands in the way of the true interest and of the removal? Is it to get rid of the incumofficers, the successor will receive no pay, if honor of the country, or stands in the way of bent? The grant upon which the power was this provision becomes a law, until that suc- some party aspiration ; but as he cannot be got- l originally claimed, and was established, was cessor is confirmed by the Senate. That cer- ten rid of hy impeachment they strike at his important to the interests of the Government tainly involves no constitutional question, for appointing power, and if they cannot get rid that there should be a right to remove. To it is entirely competent for Congress to pay of him by taking from him, practically, the il give the President the power to remove, and to what salaries it pleases to the officers of the benefit of his appointing power, they accom- deny hiin the power to appoint, is to leave the Government, or no salaries at all. The chief plish the same thing by providing that no money Government unrepresented inits severaladminobject, however, of the amendment was to shall go out of the Treasury to compensate his listrative departments, to leave offices infilled. check the practice of filling up oslices in the appointees.
Is the Senate prepared to do that? What is the vacation of the Senate when there was an op- I have now the book before me, and if the President to do? I have no more knowledge portunity to have filled them by and with the Senate will indulge me for a few moments I ll of the purpose of the President than any mem.
ber of the Senate; it is not my good fortune of fifteen shall be adopted by Congress. Surely,
remove, with the restoration of the Union, and standing, not by taking it from him directly, but by de- not divided, but standing as one and a united nying to those whom he shall appoint in place | people all under the protection of the Constiof those that be removes, compensation, what tution that our fathers framed for us and will he do? He will remove and not appoint. || adopted for us, and entitled to all its rights. Then, what are you to do? Impeach him? If I have now the letter to which I alluded some you do, what will be his defense? “My power time ago. It is a letter from Mr. Madison to to remove has been settled from the organiza- | Edward Coles, who had been his former sec. tion of the Government down to the time of retary, dated October 15, 1834. It is quite a your attempted indirect interference with it. || long letter; but there are only one or two por: You do not deny my power to remove directly; tions of it that bear on the particular question. what you propose to do is, to deny payment to In a former letter he had toid Mr. Coles that any officer whom I may appoint. You claim in his opinion the Senate of the United States that right. So far as power is concerned, you were inculcating what he termed innovating have the power, because no money can be doctrines; and Coles asked him to specify what drawn from the Treasury without an appro. he considered to be innovating; and in answer priation, and you have the power to deny the to that request Mr. Madison says: appropriation. What then? I remove not- "You are at a loss for the innovating doctrines of withstanding; I will not let a dislionest officer the Senate to which I alluded. Permit me to specify
the following: be in; I will not let an. incompetent officer be
“The claim, on constitutional ground, to a share in in ; I will not let a man who reviles me be in ;'! the removal as well as appointment of oflicers is in and no President from the beginning of the direct opposition to the uniform practice of the Gov
ernment from its commencement. It is clear that Government to this time, ever has. “I remove
the innovation would not only vary, essentially, the such a man; I try to fill liis office, but I can get existing balance of power, but expose the Executive, nobody to take his place because you say you occasionally, to a total inaction, and at all times to will not pay whoever may take his place, and
delays fatal to the due execution of the laws.
"Another innovation brought forward in the Senate what is the result? The wheels of Government claims for the Legislature a discretionary regulation are stopped, and I make an issue with Con- of the tenure of offices. This, also, would vary the before the people. Whose fault is it? Is
relation of the departments to each other, and leave gress
a wide field for legislative abuses. The power of it mine, or is it the fault of Congress ?”
removal, like that of appointment, ought to be fixed But, independent of all, Mr. President, I sub- by the Constitution, and both, like the right of sufmit to my friends who are in favor of this meas
frage and appointment of Representatives, to be not
dependent on the legislative will. In republican ure, if any are in favor of it, except the mover Governments the organization of the executive deof the amendment. what possible good is there
partment will always bo found the most difñcult and to be accomplished? I speak it in no party
delicate, particularly in regard to the appointment,
and, most of all, to the removal of officers. It may spirit, for if I know myself I am not under the well deserve consideration how far the present inodinfluence of party spirit, and in the present con- ification of these powers can be constitutionally imdition of the country I cannot be made to feel
"Anotherinnovation of great practical importance under the influence of party spirit. 'I ask, in the espoused by the Senate relates to the power of the present condition of the country, what good is Executive to make diplomatic and consular appointto be accomplished by carrying on an apparent
ments in the recess of the Senate. Ilitherto it has
been the practice to make such appointments to places war with the President, doing what has never calling for them, whether the places had or had not been done in relation to any of his predeces- before received them. Under no Administration was sors? What is the condition of the country?
the distinction more disregarded than under that of
Mr. Jefferson, particularly in consular appointments, The war against rebellion over; the Union still which rest on the same text of the Constitution with practically dissolved; and what are the signs that of public ministers. It is now asguned that the of the times? The Secretary of State has told
appointments can only be made for occurring vacan
cies, that is, places which had been previously filled. us that he has instructed our minister at Vienna
The error lies in confounding foreign missions under to ask for his passports if any Austrian troops the law of nations with municipal officers under the are sent to the aid of the tottering empire of
local law. If they were oflicers in the constitutional
sense, a legislative creation of them being expressly Maximilian. No doubt they will be sent. Then required, they could not be created by the President I suppose the Austrian minister here will ask and Senate. If, indeed, it could be admitted that as for his passports. What are we to do?
offices they would ipso facto be created by the ap
pointment from the President and Senate, the office Mr. CRESWELL, and others. Let him go. would expire with the appointment, and the next Mr. JOHNSON. Certainly we cannot pre
appointment would create a new office, not fill a vavent his going; but what may follow from his
cant one. By regarding those missions not as offices,
but as stations or agencies, always existing under the going. If we attempt to carry out the threat law of nations for Governments agreeing, the one to which is involved in the instructions to our send the other to receive the proper functionaries, minister at Austria to leave that court, war-
the case, though not perhaps altogether fren from
difficulty, is better provided for than by any other war with Austria Where can we strike her?
construction. The doctrine of the Senate would be as We may strike the few soldiers she sends into injurious in practice as it is unfounded in authority.' Mexico, but that will do her little if any harm; The first extract which I read is that which but where can she not strike us? Fill the seas
bears more immediately; and I will read it with privateers, and for aught that we know
again. The italics are in the work, no doubt engage Napoleon as an ally.
by Mr. Madison himself. I mention such contingencies as this not for
"The claim, on constitutional ground, to a share the purpose of saying that if they occur they in the removal as well as appointment of officers is are not to be met in a manly and a patriotic in direct opposition to the uniform practice of the
Government from its commencement. It is clear spirit, but for the purpose of invoking my friends
that the innovation”in this body to avoid, if it is possible to avoid, any dissension among ourselves. I should fear
The innovation being a claim of participathat while as I think no practical good of any
tion in the power of remoralappreciable extent, except perhaps in a party
"would not only vary essentially the existing balance
of the power but expose the Executive, occasionally, sense, will be accomplished by such an amend
to a total inaction, and at all times to delays fatal to ment as my friend from Illinois proposes, infi- the due execution of the laws." nite mischief may be the consequence of our And the more mature reflection of the great holding in the presence of the world divided and patriotic men who adorned this body at Councils. Eleven States of the Union are now that time led them to abandon the contest. not represented, and as far as Congress and Now we are about to renew it. My friend the presidential election are concerned, not to from Illinots says that that is not the purpose be represented until after the next presidential of the amendment, and yet he cannot help
say. election if the report made from the committee || ing that his very object is to deprive the Pres.
ident of the power to remove, not directly, but by taking from the appointees whom he may appoint the compensation which the law would otherwise give.
Now, I submit in all frankness, and, to repeat, without the slightest wish to effect any party purpose, without the most remote idea that my judgment upon this question is influ. enced at all by any party consideration, that it is all-important to the peace, quiet, prosper: ity, and honor of the country that we should get along with the President, however he may be, without trenching at all upon the powers which from time to time have been held from the beginning of the Government to belong to that department.
Mr. SUMNER. Mr. President, I should like to simplify the question before the Senate, which, it seems to me, the learned Senator from Maryland has done more to perplex than to explain. I say that, of course, with great respect to the learned Senator. It is said that the fox, when pursued, cunningly contrives to throw his pursuers off the scent, and it did seein to me as I was listening to the Senator, that he was initating that sagacious animal. He was trying to throw the Senate off the scent, and now, sir, my simple purpose will be to bring the Senate back upon the scent.
The Senator very ingeniously reminded you of our relations particularly with Austria, and he opened before us prospects which under his powerful description were calculated certainly to awaken the attention and the interest of the Senate. I share, sir, the solicitude of that Senator with reference to the question to which he has referred, but I beg to remind the Senate that it surely can have nothing to do with this question. Whatever may be our relations with Austria, or with any European Power, I know not how those can affect our decision on the simple question now before us.
Then, again, sir, there is another question of great importance, which the Senator has introduced, and which is, to a certain extent, I admit, germane to this question. I mean that question so much discussed in the early history of our country, and which has never been entirely out of mind, to what extent the Senate may share with the President the power of removal. The Senator opens that question on this occasion, as if that was in issue in the amendment proposed. Permit me to remind the Senate that however associated it may be historically, perhaps, with the amendment now before the Senate, in point of fact it has nothing to do with it. You may have one opinion or another opinion on the question which the Senator has raised, and it will not affect your conclusion on the proposition upon which you are to vote. Whether Senators agree with the learned Senator from Maryland, that the Sen. ate cannot share with the President the power of removal, or whether they disagree with him, what has that to do with the question that is now before us?
Therefore, sir, let me say, the Senator did not advance one jot in his argument when he adduced the authority of Mr. Madison, for Madison did not address himself to the ques. tion on which you are to vote. He wrote on entirely a different question, the power of removal. When the power of removal is in discussion, I, for one, shall be ready to enter into that debate, and of course I shall give all due weight to the authority of Mr. Madison, and also the other names which are associated with that question. I may remind the learned Senator, though he is not ignorant of it, that when that question was originally decided in this Chamber, it was under the Administration of George Washington, and by the casting vote of the Vice President of that day, John Adams; and there is reason to believe that when the Senate at that time abdicated its power to interfere in removals, it was governed as much by its great deference for George Washington as it was by any constitutional opinion that it had not the power.
However, I merely refer to these matters in He may in
---order to put them out of the discussion ; they more than under other Executives, of filling is already covered by the act which I have read have nothing to do with it; and this brings me offices, as I think, in violation of the spirit of and going a very little further, so as to embrace to the precise proposition before the Senate. the Constitution, he doing it himself without appointments to vacancies which are created In order that I may make no mistake in stat- consulting the Senate when it is practicable to during the recess of the Senate. I trust, sir, ing it, I will read its precise language:
consult the Senate. We tried to check this in that the amendment will receive the sanction That no person exercising or performing, or under- 1863. Now, the provision that is offered is of the Senate. taking to exercise or perform, the duties of any office simply that if a person is placed in office under Mr. SHERMAN. Mr. President, I wish I which by law is required to be filled by the advice and consent of tbe Sepate, shall, before confirmatior
circumstances where it would have been prac- could see this matter as clearly, and perceive by the Senate, receive any salary or compensatior.
ticable to have the advice and consent of the the path of duty as easily as my friend from for bis services, unless such person be commissionod Senate without their advice and consent, then Massachusetts and my friend from Illinois. I by the President to fill up a vacancy which has happened by death, resignation, or expiration of term
that person shall not be paid until the Senate should like very much to promote the manifest during the recess of the Senate and since its last consents to his appointment. When the Sen- object of the amendment, to prevent removals adjournment.
ate does consent lie receives pay from the be- || during the recess for political reasons. The The proposition is very simple ; it needs no ginning. If the Senate of the United States Constitution provides for two classes of apcommentary or no explanation. All familiar were to adjourn on the 1st day of May, to- pointments: one made during the session of with public offices know that there are unques- morrow,
and a person were appointed by the | the Senate, which are of no validity until they tionably abuses that have occurred in the ex- President to an oflice which is vacant to-day, are sent to the Senate and confirmed. They ecutive department from the habit, after the he could not under this provision receive any are the classes of appointments referred to by adjournment of the Senate, of filling vacancies salary until the Senate met again next Decem- the law of 1863, a law that I remember very which had existed during the session of the ber and confirmed him; and why? Because well, and which grew out of abuse by the ExSenate but which the Senate had chosen not the President ought, under the Constitution, to ecutive of the constitutional power to appoint to fill. Is Congress wrong if it undertakes to have sent us the name of the person to fill that
to oflice. Where a vacancy occurs during the provide by legislation that in such cases the office while we were here and to have had our session of the Senate, the appointment of the party nominated shall not be entitled to any advice and consent to his appointment. If he President is of no validity and has no force salary or compensation until he is afterward will not do that, the appointee must wait until until it is sent to the Senate and is confirmed. confirmed by the Senate? It may be, as the the Senate convenes and gives its sanction to No accounting officer of the Treasury would Senator from Maryland suggests, that we may the appointment, and then he will receive his pay the salary from the time of the appointnot interfere with the power of removal; but pay. There is no violation of any constitutional ment until the confirmation, because the apthere is one power which Congress has—and provision in doing this. But it is said that an pointment only takes effect from the confirmathe Senate is a part of Congress-and that is officer may misbehave and the President ought | tion. The act of 1863 was simply declaratory the power over the purse strings; and all that to have authority to remove him.
of the Constitution in that respect. I presume this proposition undertakes to do is to exercise using the public money during the recess of it did not change in the slightest degree either power over the purse strings in certain cases, the Senate be guilty of some malfeasance, the practice of the accounting oflicers or the so as to impose a check, a constitutional check, and he ought to be turned out. This provision practice of the Government itself, which recent events show ought to be imposed does not interfere with that. Let the Presi- But this amendment goes beyond that; it in upon the Executive. The proposition is so dent suspend him and turn him out; let him effect declares that the President of the Unisimple that it hardly justifies argument, and I also, if you please, designate some other per- ted States shall not remove anybody from will not take any further time about it.
son to fill the office until the Senate meets; office during the vacation, except upon the Mr. TRUMBÚLL. The Senator from Mary- and all there is of it is that until that other penalty that the successor shall get no pay land is mistaken in supposing that this is a person is confirmed he will not be paid ; but : unless at the pleasure of the Senate; that the measure hostile to the Executive of the United when he is confirmed he will be paid from the officer who may be appointed by the President States. It is an amendment intended to carry beginning. Is there any hardship in it? It has in case of a removal during the recess of the out what I conceive to be clearly the consti- been suggested by some that the amendment || Senate, shall perform the duties of his office tutional authority of Congress and to prevent might be amended in that respect so as to pro- without pay until the Senate confirms him, and a practice which has grown up of making ap- vide that in case of a reinoval for cause, to be in case the Senate refuses to confirm him that pointments to office without consulting the Sen. reported to the Senate when it assembled, the he shall discharge the duties of his office with
The Senator from Maryland remarked appointee should receive pay from the time ont pay at all. The Constitution provides that the other day, very properly, that if the practice of the appointment. There perhaps would be
is the President shall have power to fill up all were to prevail that the President should fill no very good objection to an amendment of vacancies that may happen during the recess up vacancies during the recess to continue that kind, though I do not deem it essential of the Senate, by granting commissions which until the end of the next session of the Senate, or necessary, for I think there would be no shall expire at the end of their next session." and then, without nominating anybody to the sort of difficulty in finding good men to take Now, let me take a case, which I submit to the Senate during its session who could obtain a any office and run the hazard of their con- chairman of the Judiciary Committee : sup: confirmation, were again after the adjournment firmation by the Senate when they were ap- pose that after the adjournment an officer of of the Senate to make a new appointment to pointed because the incumbent was unfit to the Government should become a defaulter, continue to the end of the then next session, he hold the ofiice. There would be no hesitation and should be removed for defalcation, or for could in this way continue to exercise the ap- on the part of the Senate in confirming a per: crime, and some one else should be appointed pointing power without consulting the Senate son appointed under such circumstances and in his place. That person thus appointed would at all. The Senator admitted that this would allowing him his pay. He would run no hazard be a legal officer of the Government, just as be a violation of the spirit of the Constitution. in taking the office; but if without cause, if much so as the Senator from Illinois; just as
This is no new idea in this body, nor is it simply to put into office a partisan for party much so as I am, just as much so as any officer aimed at the present Executive of the United
purposes and to the detriment of the public of the Government can be. Does he propose States. Congress had occasion more than three service, a removal is made, it is very question- | to say that this officer shall not receive any pay years ago to pass an act upon this very subject. able whether the appointee could or should be
whatever until the Senate has confirmed the At that time persons were being appointed to confirmed or even receive any compensation. || appointment? Suppose the confirmation is ollice in this same way, without consulting the Where the removal was for cause there would refused by the Senate: does the Senator mean Senate. What did Congress do? It passed be no difficulty:
to say that officer shall receive no pay, although an act providing
That is all there is of this amendment. It thus confessedly legally appointed, unless the "That no money shall be paid from the Treasury is no new provision, no attack upon the Execu- Senate confirm him? The Constitution de. of the United States to any person acting or assuming tive, and I do not think it is likely to occasion clares that this appointment made during the to act as an officer, civil, military, or naval, as salary in any office which office is not authorized by some
war with Anstria. [Laughter.] I do not my- vacation is a legal, valid appointment which previously existing law, unless where such office shali self think that we should be diverted froin shall last until the close of the following sesbe subscquently sanctioned by law; nor shall any monoy be paid out of the Treasury as salary to any
proper legislation by getting up any alarm of sion of the Senate. The officer is just as much person appointed during the recess of the Senate to
that kind. The withdrawal of our minister an officer when he takes the oath of office un611 a Facancy in any existing office which vacancy from Vienna or the withdrawal of the Aus- der that appointment as he would be after the existed while the Senato was in session and is by law
trian minister from Washington I do not think confirmation of the Senate in case he had been required to be filled by and with the advice and consent of the Senate until such appointee shall have should prevent proper legislation on a subject || appointed during the session of the Senate. been confirmed by the Senate."
of this character, and I really do not know what Do we say that we will not pay an officer for We provided more than three years ago, on it has to do with the particular provision before his services during the time he confessedly the 9th of February, 1863, that in all cases the Senate.
holds his office legally. That is the effect of where a vacancy existed which might have been I cannot see, therefore, Mr. President, any
the amendment. filled by and with the advice and consent of objection to the amendment. It seems to me Mr. CLARK. That is excluded, as I unthe Senate while it was in session, if the Pres- it involves no constitutional principle whatever. derstand. ident afterward undertook to fill that vacancy, All there is of it is that it will have a tendency Mr. SHERMAN. No, sir. I ask the Senthe appointee should receive no salary uutil he to correct a practice which has been indulged | ator from Illinois if that is not the legal effect was confirmed by the Senate. That is one in without any design, probably, on the part of of the proposition. I should like to have him case which is covered by the pending amend- former Presidents, and which I think ought to state whether the effect of the proposition is
This amendment, however, goes a little be corrected. I think the tendency of the act not as I state. A removal occurs for cause, further than the law of 1863, but not very much of 1863 was to correct a practice which was then say for defalcatior, during the recess; the further. What is there in it? A practice has growing up. It attacked it. This is another vacancy occurs by removal for some good grown up, not under the present Executive Il provision in the same direction covering what cause, a cause that he concedes to be god,